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November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
TXGunNut said
Waters refers to Mattern a couple of times but he had little to offer unless you happen to have some Sharpshooter or No. 80 powder lying around. Bryan Austin has some insight into No. 80 powder in his site. Right now you’re probably giving some thought to Lil’ Gun.
Mike
I have Mattern’s book. I wish there was a chart that showed modern powders that are the equivalent of the older powders. Unique is the only one he lists that is still around.
Brad told me about Mattern’s book. Certainly a hidden gem, wish I’d read it 40 years ago. Of course much of Waters’ data is behind the times but I’m somewhat obsolete myself.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Chuck said
TXGunNut said
Waters refers to Mattern a couple of times but he had little to offer unless you happen to have some Sharpshooter or No. 80 powder lying around. Bryan Austin has some insight into No. 80 powder in his site. Right now you’re probably giving some thought to Lil’ Gun.
Mike
I have Mattern’s book. I wish there was a chart that showed modern powders that are the equivalent of the older powders. Unique is the only one he lists that is still around.
Brad told me about Mattern’s book. Certainly a hidden gem, wish I’d read it 40 years ago. Of course much of Waters’ data is behind the times but I’m somewhat obsolete myself.
Mike
Mike I added something to my reply about Mattern. See Post 20.
November 7, 2015
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Good review, Chuck. Some interesting points I hadn’t thought about in awhile. I knew I wasn’t the only one who wasn’t a fan of 3031 in straight wall BP cases. I’m not sure I agree about drawing the line at 2400 for BP cartridges and firearms but quite honestly hadn’t given it much thought as my loads are very mild. The 32WCF load for my 1892 clearly conflicts with this thinking but it has a relined barrel. Can’t recall which steel alloy was used on either of my 92’s, I think both are due for a range trip!
Mike
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
TXGunNut said
Waters refers to Mattern a couple of times but he had little to offer unless you happen to have some Sharpshooter or No. 80 powder lying around. Bryan Austin has some insight into No. 80 powder in his site. Right now you’re probably giving some thought to Lil’ Gun.
Mike
I have Mattern’s book. I wish there was a chart that showed modern powders that are the equivalent of the older powders. Unique is the only one he lists that is still around.
Read this. https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-hunting-shooting-reloading/smokeless-versus-black-power/
Hence my very strong inclination for using IMR 4198 for many different cartridges. Unlike IMR 3031, 4198 is not position sensitive and does not require fillers to keep the velocities consistent from shot to shot. I frankly have an aversion to putting anything in a cartridge case that is not gun powder, especially TP.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
C
Hence my very strong inclination for using IMR 4198 for many different cartridges. Unlike IMR 3031, 4198 is not position sensitive and does not require fillers to keep the velocities consistent from shot to shot. I frankly have an aversion to putting anything in a cartridge case that is not gun powder, especially TP.
Bert
We’ll just have to disagree about fillers. 4198 is a great powder to use but without a filler in the 45 EX it was giving me weird numbers and the cases were distorted. When using the filler these problems disappeared. Many of the old loading manuals say to use a filler and that is what I’ll do. A few manuals talk about flashover and guns exploding. I am not going to be the test dummy.
June 11, 2014
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I have Clyde Williamson’s The Winchester Lever Legacy. He tests a lot of different loads and typically got his best accuracy with cast bullets at around 2,000 fps. But he found that case life at the higher velocities was 3 to 4 loads before they developed a “ring at webb of cases”. That being said, his “hunting loads” with cast bullets were around 22 grains of 2400 (1,959 fps with a Remington 180 JFP or 2,047 fps with a cast 170 GC. He also got good results with IMR 4227 at 25.5 grains under a 170 GC for 2,000 fps. I find that IMR 4227 and 5744 have very similar burn rates, but IMR 4227 is very sensitive to position whereas 5744 is much less sensitive to position (but quite sensitive to ambient temperature). All these data were out of a Model 1892 rifle.
November 7, 2015
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I’m a bit leery of fillers as well, Snooky Williamson used TP on a regular basis and based on his experience I used it in a project awhile back. OTOH I’m of the opinion that most burst barrels are the result of a bore obstruction. The recent burst barrel at our club possibly fits the scenario of a flashover but I don’t know enough about it yet.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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Kirk Durston said
I have Clyde Williamson’s The Winchester Lever Legacy. He tests a lot of different loads and typically got his best accuracy with cast bullets at around 2,000 fps. But he found that case life at the higher velocities was 3 to 4 loads before they developed a “ring at webb of cases”. That being said, his “hunting loads” with cast bullets were around 22 grains of 2400 (1,959 fps with a Remington 180 JFP or 2,047 fps with a cast 170 GC. He also got good results with IMR 4227 at 25.5 grains under a 170 GC for 2,000 fps. I find that IMR 4227 and 5744 have very similar burn rates, but IMR 4227 is very sensitive to position whereas 5744 is much less sensitive to position (but quite sensitive to ambient temperature). All these data were out of a Model 1892 rifle.
22 grains of IMR 4227 in a 38-40 case is somewhere above 80% full, and as such, it should not exhibit any “position” sensitive traits.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
June 11, 2014
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Bert H. said
22 grains of IMR 4227 in a 38-40 case is somewhere above 80% full, and as such, it should not exhibit any “position” sensitive traits.
Bert
That makes sense. I’ve chronographed huge velocity variations with IMR 4227 in larger, half empty cases depending upon whether I tipped the rifle up or down just before shooting across the chronograph. But as you point out, 80% full in the case of the 38-40, it probably would be the same no matter what the pre-firing position was. The biggest position difference for IMR 4227 I ever actually measured with was the 45-60 case … approximately 300 fps difference. 5744 was a huge improvement in that case and I now use 5744 for all my black powder calibers, including 45 Schofield, 38-40, and 44-40 as well as 45-75, 38-55, and 45-70 … but I use lighter loads to mimic original black powder ballistics for all of them, so there’s more empty space. IMR 4198 is a close second that I also use sometimes.
November 19, 2006
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All this is very interesting and I’m printing it all out for future reference. I’m surprised I’m not seeing more reference to Trail Boss? (I use plenty of it).
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
All this is very interesting and I’m printing it all out for future reference. I’m surprised I’m not seeing more reference to Trail Boss? (I use plenty of it).
Steve-
I haven’t gotten much positive feedback from anyone outside of CAS shooters. Quite honestly the price has kept me from trying it. I understand it works well for the very light loads the CAS shooters like and I prefer velocities close to BP levels. What is your experience?
Mike
November 19, 2006
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TXGunNut said
steve004 said
All this is very interesting and I’m printing it all out for future reference. I’m surprised I’m not seeing more reference to Trail Boss? (I use plenty of it).
Steve-
I haven’t gotten much positive feedback from anyone outside of CAS shooters. Quite honestly the price has kept me from trying it. I understand it works well for the very light loads the CAS shooters like and I prefer velocities close to BP levels. What is your experience?
Mike
I’ve used it satisfactorily in a variety of cartridges from the M1892 calibers to M1886 calibers (not the .33 WCF) to .308 and .30-06 to .375 H&H Magnum. In fact, I like it in the .375 H&H a lot. And I’m not talking about cast bullets in these “modern calibers” – I’m using jacketed bullets. My go to bullet in the .375 H&H is the 235 grain Speer jacketed bullet (designed for the .375 H&H). We are talking reduced loads of course. Here’s Hodgdon’s Trail Boss data sheet:
https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018-2.pdf
April 15, 2005
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On a related topic, I just returned home from town (a 25-mile drive each direction) where I purchased a 1-lb can of Alliant 2400 powder… $77 (which included a “Hazmat fee” and sales tax. At 22 grains per cartridge (38-40 reloads) I will get 318 reloads out of that 1 lb can (essentially .25 cents of powder per cartridge). When combined with the cost of the Hornady 180 grain XTP bullets ($37.50 per 100) and the primers @ 1.15 cents each, it costs $.64 per cartridge to reload the 38 WCF cartridges (or $32 per 50-round box)!
Reloading your own used to be somewhat economical… but no longer!!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
September 19, 2014
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Bert, for sure have to agree wit you! Luckily I am working still with older purchases. Absolutely crazy prices on powders. I doubt it has any chance of improvement, either. Currently have the impact of a long, drawn out war in eastern Europe with powder production being siphoned off for that. Don’t know if import duties are increasing costs as many of our powders are now made over seas. The US is just now waking up about expanding the Iowa Army Ammunition plant to produce more artillery rounds. New construction so the new facility won’t be on line until 2027. Hope its not too late! In so many ways, WW III is underway. Tim
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
On a related topic, I just returned home from town (a 25-mile drive each direction) where I purchased a 1-lb can of Alliant 2400 powder… $77 (which included a “Hazmat fee” and sales tax. At 22 grains per cartridge (38-40 reloads) I will get 318 reloads out of that 1 lb can (essentially .25 cents of powder per cartridge). When combined with the cost of the Hornady 180 grain XTP bullets ($37.50 per 100) and the primers @ 1.15 cents each, it costs $.64 per cartridge to reload the 38 WCF cartridges (or $32 per 50-round box)!
Reloading your own used to be somewhat economical… but no longer!!
Bert
Bert-
Thanks, I’m feeling better about my powder overpurchases several years back and a custom mould that turns scavenged wheelweight lead into pretty good bullets. My smaller charge of Unique powder also saves me some money. It probably costs me less than 20 cents to pull the trigger on one of my 38WCF rounds. I forgot to dig out either of my 1892’s yesterday, the 32WCF costs even less to shoot than the 38 and it has a tang sight.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
On a related topic, I just returned home from town (a 25-mile drive each direction) where I purchased a 1-lb can of Alliant 2400 powder… $77 (which included a “Hazmat fee” and sales tax. At 22 grains per cartridge (38-40 reloads) I will get 318 reloads out of that 1 lb can (essentially .25 cents of powder per cartridge). When combined with the cost of the Hornady 180 grain XTP bullets ($37.50 per 100) and the primers @ 1.15 cents each, it costs $.64 per cartridge to reload the 38 WCF cartridges (or $32 per 50-round box)!
Reloading your own used to be somewhat economical… but no longer!!
Bert
Bert-
Thanks, I’m feeling better about my powder overpurchases several years back and a custom mould that turns scavenged wheelweight lead into pretty good bullets. My smaller charge of Unique powder also saves me some money. It probably costs me less than 20 cents to pull the trigger on one of my 38WCF rounds. I forgot to dig out either of my 1892’s yesterday, the 32WCF costs even less to shoot than the 38 and it has a tang sight.
Mike
I had a decent supply of Bullseye, IMR 4198, IMR 4064, IMR 3031, IMR 4831, and IMR 4350 on hand before I started my reloading binge last year. I purchased a couple of pounds each of Lil’Gun and H-110 last year, but I failed to restock my supply of A-2400 and IMR 4227 (my thought at the time was that the Lil’Gun would suffice for both).
During the past few days, I loaded a small batch of 38-40 cartridges with 5.5 grains of Bullseye, 26.0 grains of IMR 4227 (I had a drip of it left), and 22.0 grains of A-2400 (10 of each). I need to get out to the range (another 25-mile one-way trip) to see which load my old high-wall prefers.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
I’m a bit leery of fillers as well, Snooky Williamson used TP on a regular basis and based on his experience I used it in a project awhile back. OTOH I’m of the opinion that most burst barrels are the result of a bore obstruction. The recent burst barrel at our club possibly fits the scenario of a flashover but I don’t know enough about it yet.
Mike
The flash over explosions that have been verified where loads with less than 50% capacity of smokeless in a black powder cartridge. Most of these happened in the early 1900’s when smokeless was relatively new in the usage in black powder cartridges. That’s why the ballisticians of the day recommended a filler.
One of my charges in the 45 EX rounds with just 31 grains of 4198 did not ignite. Only the primer. I had to knock out the bullet from the barrel.
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