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April 15, 2005
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As some of you may know, I have a late production (1917) Single Shot (high-wall) rifle that was factory special ordered with a 30-inch No. 3 full octagon barrel, Schuetzen double-set triggers, a Mid-range vernier tang and a Winchester Globe front sight, and it is chambered for the 38 WCF cartridge. I have owned the rifle for almost 30-years, and shortly after I purchased it, I bought (2) boxes of factory 180-gr JSP ammo for it (which it shot wonderfully).
I just recently acquired an original reloading tool for it, and I want to load up all of the empties that I saved for it. In reviewing all of the reloading data I have, it is all strictly low-pressure (less than 12K) and for the Colt SAA and Winchester 1873 (black powder guns). What I am looking for (and have not been able to find) is the equivalent Winchester High Velocity (WHV) load data. I purchased a box of Hornady 10 MM XTP 180 grain JHP bullets that I intend to load in the 38 WCF cases, but need powder type & charge weight information. The original WHV load was published to be in the 1,750 fps range, and that is what I am looking to duplicate. If anyone has a data source for the 38 WCF (38-40) WHV loading, I would really appreciate a scanned copy of it.
The rifle in question is the second one from the bottom.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
Check your e-mail. Santa Claus needs to bring you a Waters book. He even lists loads for 2400 and 4227.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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Thans to Mike and Randy 
I was quite surprised by the load data in the old Ideal Handbook! I plan to load with A2400, but not quite as stout as the listed 25.5 grain load. I had no idea that the 38-40 cartridge was capable of pushing a 180-gr JSP to 2,200 fps !! That puts it in the same fpe range as the original 30 WCF with a 170-gr bullet load.
I believe that I am going to start with 21.0 grains and work it up slowly to find the accuracy load for my old high-wall.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 20, 2010
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Ive shot a lot of 38-40 rounds through my shooter 1892 rifle using 18.3grn of IMR 4227 (180 grn lead bullet made by Meister), which chronographed at 1365 fps. Working on casting my own currently.
My Lyman #41 manual has listed 175 grn plain base cast bullet at suggested 17 grn of 2400 for 1340 FPS, Max 23.6 grn at 1940 fps. However Ive shot 17 grns of 2400 and it chronographed in the 1650 fps range (200 fps faster than stated in the manual), with 68 fps range (5 shots).
Have attached the load data from Lyman 41 Edition Manual with options for IMR 4227, 2400, Unique, & SR4759.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
April 15, 2005
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1892takedown said
Ive shot a lot of 38-40 rounds through my shooter 1892 rifle using 18.3grn of IMR 4227 (180 grn lead bullet made by Meister), which chronographed at 1365 fps. Working on casting my own currently.
My Lyman #41 manual has listed 175 grn plain base cast bullet at suggested 17 grn of 2400 for 1340 FPS, Max 23.6 grn at 1940 fps. However Ive shot 17 grns of 2400 and it chronographed in the 1650 fps range (200 fps faster than stated in the manual), with 68 fps range (5 shots).
Have attached the load data from Lyman 41 Edition Manual with options for IMR 4227, 2400, Unique, & SR4759.
Thanks Chris,
I will be shooting modern 180-gr Hornady XTP (10 MM) bullets with the A2400, and I expect it will perform better in the 1,700 – 1,900 fps range. It should be relatively easy to achieve that velocity range out of the 30-inch barrel on my old high-wall. I have to imagine that the listed 2,200 fps load (25.5 grains) would be quite the handful in a Model 92 Carbine !
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 7, 2017
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Bert, P.O. Ackley Vol I, lists the 180 gr bullet loads: 18 gr. w/ 2400 powder @1680 fps and 22 gr. producing 1870 fps
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
WACA #10293
November 19, 2006
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Bert –
I’ll be quite interested to hear what sort of accuracy you obtain with these bullets and the higher powder charges.
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
Sounds like an interesting project. Waters had some interesting and hopefully helpful data. I have a nice enough 1892 rifle in 38-40 WCF but it liked Mike Venturino’s of 8grs Unique under my cast 180 bullet so it’s the only load I’ve ever tried. I don’t shoot it very well with the standard 22A rear sights so it’s just a fun gun.
A 180gr bullet at 1800fps is pretty impressive for a pistol cartridge from the BP era. Waters had some case issues at the velocities you desire but I suspect those issues may have been attributable to the test rifle as his data is a bit more conservative than the Ideal data. I’ll need to review the article to see if he has any helpful hints.
Mike
March 15, 2020
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Bert, some loading info from my Lyman #40 handbook. Also at your advanced years you should not even consider 117 MPH. I got my little car upto 110 and was scared silly. Don
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Thanks Chris,
I will be shooting modern 180-gr Hornady XTP (10 MM) bullets with the A2400, and I expect it will perform better in the 1,700 – 1,900 fps range. It should be relatively easy to achieve that velocity range out of the 30-inch barrel on my old high-wall. I have to imagine that the listed 2,200 fps load (25.5 grains) would be quite the handful in a Model 92 Carbine !Bert
Some of Water’s loads can be a little hot. Not sure about his 38 WCF loads.
He shows with a 180 gr Win JSP bullet and 2400 to use 19 to 21 grains. His 21 gr load is listed at 1,786 fps. His most accurate load was 19 gr at 1,572 fps.
April 15, 2005
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86Win said
Bert, some loading info from my Lyman #40 handbook. Also at your advanced years you should not even consider 117 MPH. I got my little car up to 110 and was scared silly. Don
Don,
To be perfectly honest, it was almost 20-years ago that I pushed my old Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins up to its upper limit. I did it during my drive home from the Cody show while still in Montanna on I-90. There was almost no traffic on the freeway, and my Dodge was still almost new (less than 20K miles on the odometer). I was curious to see what the Cummins powerplant could really do pushing an 8,000 lb truck, so I hammered the throttle until it hit the rev limiter (which is just 3,200 RPM). I was shocked to see that it nearly pegged the 120 MPG speedometer. The interesting thing is that the truck felt and drove exactly the same at 117 mph as it does at my normal 85 mph speed on I-90… it never got “light” or squirrely feeling. The only thing that changed was an increase in cab noise, and even that was not overly obnoxious. Rest assured, I do not push it past 87 mph these days due to the rapid increase in fuel consumption that occurs at the higher engine rpms. At 85 mph I am getting 18.3 mpg, but at 88 mph it drops to 15.5 mpg. Due to increased engine rpm at that speed & load on the engine, there is a corresponding rapid increase in the turbocharger boost output that the ECM compensates for it by significantly increasing the dwell time (fuel rate) through the electronic fuel injectors.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert H. said
Thanks Chris,
I will be shooting modern 180-gr Hornady XTP (10 MM) bullets with the A2400, and I expect it will perform better in the 1,700 – 1,900 fps range. It should be relatively easy to achieve that velocity range out of the 30-inch barrel on my old high-wall. I have to imagine that the listed 2,200 fps load (25.5 grains) would be quite the handful in a Model 92 Carbine !
Bert
Some of Water’s loads can be a little hot. Not sure about his 38 WCF loads.
He shows with a 180 gr Win JSP bullet and 2400 to use 19 to 21 grains. His 21 gr load is listed at 1,786 fps. His most accurate load was 19 gr at 1,572 fps.
That is why I am starting at 21 grains. I am not at all concerned about my high-wall rifles’ ability to safely digest that load. It may turn out that I need to reduce the powder charge a little bit, or maybe increase it a bit… the target will tell me what it likes! The fact that it is a 1917 production center-fire high wall rifle (s/n 120876) means that it was specifically built for smokeless powder loads. It has the factory small diameter (smokeless) firing pin. It is one of four high wall rifles in my collection that were factory built for smokeless powder cartridges.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
As promised, I’ve reviewed Waters’ January 1975 article. A few points that may be useful are his recommendation for high quality dies to ensure getting the bullets centered in the case (and in the bore). He also reported that Whelen found the WHV loads less accurate than standard velocity. In most cases Waters’s results were consistent with Whelen’s. With his 1892 Waters reported best velocity under 1560fps with 2400 loads in particular decreasing in accuracy as velocity increased. For some reason the 4227 loads were the exception with good accuracy at 1827fps. He also recommended magnum primers for 2400 and 4227. Waters refers to Mattern a couple of times but he had little to offer unless you happen to have some Sharpshooter or No. 80 powder lying around. Bryan Austin has some insight into No. 80 powder in his site. Right now you’re probably giving some thought to Lil’ Gun.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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I am not sure if any loading data exists for using Lil’Gun powder in large volume pistol cartridges. It works wonderfully in my 22 Hornet & K-Hornets though.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
I am not sure if any loading data exists for using Lil’Gun powder in large volume pistol cartridges. It works wonderfully in my 22 Hornet & K-Hornets though.
Bert
I agree, safest to use published data. Couldn’t help but notice that 4227 and 2400 do well in both cartridges.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
I am not sure if any loading data exists for using Lil’Gun powder in large volume pistol cartridges. It works wonderfully in my 22 Hornet & K-Hornets though.
Bert
I agree, safest to use published data. Couldn’t help but notice that 4227 and 2400 do well in both cartridges.
Mike
Before I discovered the Lil’Gun powder for the 22 Hornet cartridge, I used both 2400 and IMR 4227 with near identical results. The 22 Hornet is very amenable to all three powder types. I might try contacting Hodgdon to see if they have any load data for the 38-40 using Lil’Gun.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
I am not sure if any loading data exists for using Lil’Gun powder in large volume pistol cartridges. It works wonderfully in my 22 Hornet & K-Hornets though.
Bert
I agree, safest to use published data. Couldn’t help but notice that 4227 and 2400 do well in both cartridges.
Mike
Before I discovered the Lil’Gun powder for the 22 Hornet cartridge, I used both 2400 and IMR 4227 with near identical results. The 22 Hornet is very amenable to all three powder types. I might try contacting Hodgdon to see if they have any load data for the 38-40 using Lil’Gun.
Bert
Agreed, you may have used 2400 and/or 4227 in your 44 Mag adventures. I’m willing to bet Hodgdon has tried Lil’ Gun in the 38-40 unless they have quit fooling with this old cartridge altogether.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
I am not sure if any loading data exists for using Lil’Gun powder in large volume pistol cartridges. It works wonderfully in my 22 Hornet & K-Hornets though.
Bert
I agree, safest to use published data. Couldn’t help but notice that 4227 and 2400 do well in both cartridges.
Mike
Before I discovered the Lil’Gun powder for the 22 Hornet cartridge, I used both 2400 and IMR 4227 with near identical results. The 22 Hornet is very amenable to all three powder types. I might try contacting Hodgdon to see if they have any load data for the 38-40 using Lil’Gun.
Bert
Agreed, you may have used 2400 and/or 4227 in your 44 Mag adventures. I’m willing to bet Hodgdon has tried Lil’ Gun in the 38-40 unless they have quit fooling with this old cartridge altogether.
Mike
I briefly used 2400 in my 44 Mag loads, but I quickly gravitated to WW 296 for my IHMSA competition loads (27 grains under a Sierra 220-gr SIL-FMJ). Currently I am loading 29 grains of H110 under a 200 grain Hornady XTP for my Ruger Super Redhawk… for all of you S&W Model 29/629 owners, do NOT attempt any of my loads in your gun!!!
I spent about 45-minutes searching for load data on the Hodgdon website… the only load data they have for the 38-40 are a few very anemic pistol loads.
Interestingly, I noted that on the powder burn rate chart that Lil’Gun, H110, and WW 296 are in consecutive numerical order – Copy of 2024-Smokeless Relative Burn Rate Chart-WEBSITE (hodgdonpowderco.com)
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
That IS interesting, also see 4227 only a little slower and 2400 a few steps faster. Burn rate is only part of the picture, that’s what fascinates me about powders and keeps me from being creative with them. I don’t think anyone wants to publish a 38-40 WCF load that isn’t safe in revolvers and 1873’s, even the strong guns of the period are likely to be over 100 years old and no one alive can be sure what they have endured over the years. We had an incident involving a 45-70 at our club recently that resulted in an injury and destruction of a gun. No solid details yet but I’ve never seen a load listed for the powder apparently used in this cartridge.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Waters refers to Mattern a couple of times but he had little to offer unless you happen to have some Sharpshooter or No. 80 powder lying around. Bryan Austin has some insight into No. 80 powder in his site. Right now you’re probably giving some thought to Lil’ Gun.
Mike
I have Mattern’s book. I wish there was a chart that showed modern powders that are the equivalent of the older powders. Unique is the only one he lists that is still around.
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