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I reloaded the 51 cases as before.
I did not anneal the brass or trim it. Once the fire forming is done I will start annealing and trimming after each firing. My 3 way case trimmer is set up based upon the correct shoulder and I am not there yet. I used a Frankford Arsenal tool to chamfer and de burr the mouths.
Seating the primers was less work after uniforming. I measured 10 case mouths before seating the bullets and then after. Each measured an increase of .003″. So I have .003″ of neck tension. I was hoping for .002″. A change of bushing or expander mandrel can change that but I probably won’t mess with it.
I measured the base to ogive of the current box of bullets. Most of the 10 I measured were .645″. I then opened the next box and measured 10 of these. These measured .646″ base to ogive. This is not enough to worry about but some lesser bullets will change quite a bit from lot to lot. Elite shooters don’t like to change anything for the life of the barrel. Brass, primers, powder and bullets. So enough of each is purchased so they don’t change any lot numbers. I do not have the luxury to do that. But you need to test if you change anything.
The barrel is still soaking. There is some small patches of copper right before the muzzle.
Here is a picture of my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel.
My case trimmer
FA case prep tool
Thought I had all the copper out. But I know that hard carbon and copper layers up. So I cleaned the barrel and found a very small amount of copper. Now I feel that this barrel is cleaner that it has been for some time. They are talking about winds on my shooting day. If they aren’t bad I will shoot to get the data I want and complete the fire forming.
Ok, I know I’m really going off the subject but here are 2 pictures of the 308 as it is presently configured.
November 7, 2015
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At least it sorta looks like a gun, unlike some of those full-blown benchrest rigs.
Mike
It has a real stock. “Unlimited Class” benchrest rifles don’t bother and more closely resemble a lathe or barrel rifling machine.
I wouldn’t settle on it for sheep, however.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
This is not a Bench Rest or F Class rifle but my rifle that I shoot from a bench or in the prone position. No one would want to carry this up the side of a hill or a long day in the field. It does have sling attachment points if I wanted to carry it somewhere. l don’t like rifles that you don’t actually touch anything other than the trigger. It’s called free recoil.
Here is a Unlimited Class rail gun.
And a F Class Open. The front rest alone is over $2,000. It has a joy stick that does all of the adjustments so all you have to do is pull the trigger. This one has a chassis but most use a stock of some type.
These 2 classes shoot the smallest groups. One mainly at close range and the other at 1,000 yds. These guys know how to load so I follow them.
Chuck said
This is not a Bench Rest or F Class rifle but my rifle that I shoot from a bench or in the prone position. No one would want to carry this up the side of a hill or a long day in the field. It does have sling attachment points if I wanted to carry it somewhere. l don’t like rifles that you don’t actually touch anything other than the trigger. It’s called free recoil.Here is a Unlimited Class rail gun.
And a F Class Open. The front rest alone is over $2,000. It has a joy stick that does all of the adjustments so all you have to do is pull the trigger. This one has a chassis but most use a stock of some type.
These 2 classes shoot the smallest groups. One mainly at close range and the other at 1,000 yds. These guys know how to load so I follow them.
I don’t think i would take up that aspect of the sport myself, but what these guys are trying to do, apparently with some success, is to take human error out of the shot, in order to isolate the mechanical and chemical variables of the accuracy equation. A laudable goal that looks like it requires a serious amount of money to even set up for.
Like the early space program, their efforts have thrown off a lot of useful information, both intentional and collateral. Just before I read your last post I was making an espresso to drink and cleaned the machine up with a micropore cloth…
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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I understand that many of the advanced loading and shooting techniques have little or no benefit for sporting rifles but I still use a number of them on my hunting loads because they make sense and don’t take much to implement. Just as technology has benefitted from the space program and street cars benefit from racing, sporting rifles have benefitted from precision shooters. It’s hard to measure the effect confidence in one’s rifle and load has on the sporting shooters’ marksmanship. I’ll keep tweaking those hunting loads and my brother fills his freezer several times with each box of the rounds I load for him. He’s a better shot on hair than he is on paper, confidence is a good reason why.
Mike
Precision/Bench shooting has come up in a couple of threads today. So I thought some here might find this interesting.
It’s a one off unlimited bench gun built by the research dept at Winchester in the 1960’s. According to Winchester executive Tom Henshaw, It was built in the research department for the Manager of Rifle & Pistol Shooting Promotion at Winchester Max Thompson. He supposedly wanted to explore if Winchester might get into building guns for the benchrest market. Tom mentioned that he took it to a few events to shoot and gain feedback. It’s a beast weighing in over 30lb’s. It’s built around one of a group of M70 single shot actions made up in the 60’s. Cal .308.
For the photos, I propped it up with some wood pieces I had laying around, and I slapped a Unertl on for looks.
Tom acquired it from Max and he subsequently passed it along to me.
As Chuck, Bill and Mike allude, precision shooting has certainly evolved.
1ned1 said
Precision/Bench shooting has come up in a couple of threads today. So I thought some here might find this interesting.It’s a one off unlimited bench gun built by the research dept at Winchester in the 1960’s. According to Winchester executive Tom Henshaw, It was built in the research department for the Manager of Rifle & Pistol Shooting Promotion at Winchester Max Thompson. He supposedly wanted to explore if Winchester might get into building guns for the benchrest market. Tom mentioned that he took it to a few events to shoot and gain feedback. It’s a beast weighing in over 30lb’s. It’s built around one of a group of M70 single shot actions made up in the 60’s. Cal .308.
For the photos, I propped it up with some wood pieces I had laying around, and I slapped a Unertl on for looks.
Tom acquired it from Max and he subsequently passed it along to me.
As Chuck, Bill and Mike allude, precision shooting has certainly evolved.
Very cool rifle. I see some similar styles at the range. Old F Class Open rifles.
Zebulon said
Chuck said
This is not a Bench Rest or F Class rifle but my rifle that I shoot from a bench or in the prone position. No one would want to carry this up the side of a hill or a long day in the field. It does have sling attachment points if I wanted to carry it somewhere. l don’t like rifles that you don’t actually touch anything other than the trigger. It’s called free recoil.
Here is a Unlimited Class rail gun.
And a F Class Open. The front rest alone is over $2,000. It has a joy stick that does all of the adjustments so all you have to do is pull the trigger. This one has a chassis but most use a stock of some type.
These 2 classes shoot the smallest groups. One mainly at close range and the other at 1,000 yds. These guys know how to load so I follow them.
I don’t think i would take up that aspect of the sport myself, but what these guys are trying to do, apparently with some success, is to take human error out of the shot, in order to isolate the mechanical and chemical variables of the accuracy equation. A laudable goal that looks like it requires a serious amount of money to even set up for.
Like the early space program, their efforts have thrown off a lot of useful information, both intentional and collateral. Just before I read your last post I was making an espresso to drink and cleaned the machine up with a micropore cloth…
Some of the elite, and wealthy, shooters build a rail gun just to test their ammo. It does take out the human factor. I want a rifle that I actually hold on to. That is why my rifles have both F Class and Bench Rest elements.
Finally got a day where the wind wouldn’t blow over my chronograph. I got within a quarter mile of the Eaton Canyon fire but trying to drive and look over some of the sound barrier walls I didn’t see anything.
I was hoping to fire all 51 cartridges again to complete the fire forming. I only shot 34. I was watching the speed increase and could see it kept going up. It really started going up after about 28 rounds. I never got close to the book max but I was heading that way. I figured the barrel was scraping too much copper and when I got home the bore scope proved that was the problem. I forgot to take the cleaning rod to the range. I need to take a picture of the cleaning patches. Very, very blue.
Some of the cases have increased .007″ base to shoulder but most of the 34 only increased .005″. .007″ of headspace put these brand new cases right at the largest headspace allowed per SAAMI specs. So I have 34 cases fire formed with less than .001″ headspace. Now I can bump them back .002″ when I full length size them. I still have the rest to fire form next week.
Remember one of these rounds had a bullet that was hard jammed into the lands and the other 33 were seated hard jam minus .020″. Now I can drill and tap a case to determine how much if any these were actually into the lands when I find he touch point.
Like Zeb mentioned it is hard to really read the primers and rely on bolt lift to determine excess pressure. The hard jammed bullet did cause a harder bolt lift. But the average FPS for all 34 was 2924 fps. The one that was hard jammed shot at 2930 fps. Not even close to the later ones when bore got tighter. All the primers looked fine. On a push feed bolt the ejector will cause a mark on the case when there is excess pressure. Not so on this controlled feed bolt.
I’m going to go take a picture.
Here is a picture of the patches. Ran 2 through to get out some of the black stuff. Then I used Sweats 3 times. Now it is soaking with my normal cleaner. Eventually I will know when to stop and remove the copper. And remember to take the cleaning rod to the range.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
Any thoughts on that bore? Can’t say I’ve had one that fouled that badly but I’ve never watched one that closely. Maybe another bullet would foul less. Some of these new powders are supposed to be cleaner but I like the old school powders for an old school cartridge. Sounds like you’re making good progress on your cases.
Mike
When I eyeballed the barrel it looked good. Then after I bought it and put my bore scope in it the machine marks are really rough. I don’t think another bullet would be better. It may get better when I do my powder ladder testing and most likely shoot at a lower speed. I bet it will shoot best with the bullet out of the lands. But that will come after the powder testing. I was purposely shooting these hot to help with the forming and I wanted the bullet in the lands to ensure the base of the case was against the bolt face.
What can be learned from this is why you need to fire form the brass to control the headspace and optimize the case volume. And how important a chronograph and a bore scope can be. Loading manuals are just a starting point. The load I used was suppose to get me 2800 fps. But the way I seated the bullet I got more. If you keep pushing the bullet into the case at some point the pressure will go up because of the reduced case volume. The last thing is having the bullet in the lands isn’t always a bad thing. Your barrel/groups size will tell you what it likes. My Mentor always says “Believe the Target”.
Your knowledge all the variables is interesting, but over my head! But one thing is for sure the gospel? Listen to the target! Mine shouted at me when I finally tried Winchester PP’S 150gr factory after trying my reloads of various 130 & 140gr and powders! But since I’m finding plenty adequate hunting accuracy reloads with Hornady IL’s130*150gr & H4350 and Speer HC 130gr & IMR4831. Keep us informed on progress!
November 7, 2015
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“Believe the Target”. I like that. One axiom I’m fond of is “it’s all speculation until the trigger is pulled”.
Mike
TXGunNut said
“Believe the Target”. I like that. One axiom I’m fond of is “it’s all speculation until the trigger is pulled”.
Mike
“Believe the Target” Erik Cortina world Champion and USA Team Member.
David, most of this was over my head about 5 years ago. I had some of the tools but really didn’t know what to do with them.
Some of this can help hunters but is mainly done by target shooters who want to shoot dots like Tim’s.
I finished fire forming the last 17 pieces of brass today. Now they all measure 1.906″ base to shoulder. When I resize them I will push the shoulder back .002″ for .002″ of head space. I shot these a bit slower and never got the barrel as hot. The mean velocity for these was 2,962 fps. The manual said I would get 2,800 fps. But remember I have the bullets into the lands. I did not reach the max velocity noted in the manual.
I took a messed up piece of fire formed brass and drilled and tapped it for the Chamber All tool so I can find out where this specific bullet is touching the lands. When I do this I will know how far I was in the lands.
I have a block of wood that I use to hold cases when using the drill press and a vise to keep every thing steady. It is recommended to use a L drill and a 5/16″ 36 NS tap.
Here are some pic.
November 7, 2015
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Glad you’re making progress, Chuck. Was headed to the range today but an odd front came through and some critical joints acted up. I’m glad I’m not the only one with a drill press in my loading room. Amazing amount of precision and versatility for the money!
Mike
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