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I have a 1890 L. Rifle with a serial number that dates to 1908. I have read that Winchester made a few 1890s in long rifle before the date of 1919 and that they were stamped with the L.Rifle symbol. I also read that Winchester sold several long rifle barrels to a dealer and they (Winchester) fitted them to gallery guns. These barrels were stamped Long Rifle or LR. This gun looks to be original, but I have been fooled before. Is there any way to know or determine if this long rifle gun is correct?l
James,
Winchester did not manufacture any standard production Model 1890/90 rifles in 22 Long Rifle before 1918, and when production of that cartridge chambering did begin, they were never marked “L. Rifle”. If the S/N on your Model 1890 is < 330000, you can get a factory letter for it from the CFM records office, and that letter will tell you which specific .22 rim fire cartridge it was originally made for.
If you can post a link to a clear picture of the barrel markings, that will help us to solve the mystery.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
In a book written by George Madis, The Winchester Handbook, he states that a few early rifles were produced for the long rifle cartridge and are marked for this caliber 22 L. Rifle. This is where my information comes from and my gun is stamped like this. It is not a over stamp or a barrel that has been stamped in a different location. The serial number is 337- – – which dates it 1908, I have seen only one other gun stamped like this and it was dated to 1911. I understand that there are no records for this serial number. I am wondering if anybody has any information other than what I have read. Thank you for your reply and if you have any other knowledge about these guns please let me know.
James,
Unfortunately, the information published by George Madis must be viewed as “opinion”, not fact. Based on my personal experience and observations, any Model 1890 rifle manufactured before 1918 with a 22 Long Rifle barrel on it is not factory original. Most of them have a mail order replacement barrel (with a (P) proof mark stamp on them). None of the original barrels were marked “22 L. Rifle”. Instead, they were marked “22 LONG R.” or more commonly “22 LONG RIFLE”.
According to Ned Schwing, Winchester manufactured the first experimental Model 1890 in 22 LR in the year 1915.
If you can do so, please send me a clear picture of your rifle showing the barrel markings.
Bert – [email protected]
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi James,
I can also add that the initial statement that “Winchester fitted .22 LR barrels to gallery guns” is likely incorrect. Shooting galleries did not use the .22LR caliber as it was too powerful but, more importantly, was not offered with a “spatterless” frangible bullet like the .22 short. As soon as it was developed, nearly all of the shooting galleries used the frangible bullets since they were safer, cheaper and did not beat up the targets near as badly. Winchester and Remington were both leaders in the .22 short frangible bullet production. .22 LR is simply the wrong caliber for a shooting gallery.
Also, your 337xxx serial number dates it to 1907. There is nothing wrong in basing your knowledge on books, just make sure you are reading the right sources as new (and more correct information) is discovered every day. Bert is simply trying to help you get the most accurate and current information as a reference.
A picture of your barrel markings would really help us determine what you have.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
When I was collecting these the earliest long rifle I saw was in the 666000 range.
January 26, 2011
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Chuck said
When I was collecting these the earliest long rifle I saw was in the 666000 range.
Chuck
Here’s one I Have that’s 633037. A fairy early 22 LR that still has the full Model 1890 model designation and the “22 Long R.” caliber stamp. I’ve always liked it because it’s the end of the 1890 and the start of the 22 LR overlapping, so to speak.
~Gary~
I will send a photo this afternoon, and I sure value the information.
pdog72 said
Chuck
Here’s one I Have that’s 633037. A fairy early 22 LR that still has the full Model 1890 model designation and the “22 Long R.” caliber stamp. I’ve always liked it because it’s the end of the 1890 and the start of the 22 LR overlapping, so to speak.
Your gun is right around the transition from 1890 to 90. My guess was 666000 but that was just a guess. It definitely was in 1919. I wonder if anyone has a LR earlier than 1919??
Chuck said
Your gun is right around the transition from 1890 to 90. My guess was 666000 but that was just a guess. It definitely was in 1919. I wonder if anyone has a LR earlier than 1919??
If anyone does, I’d be doubtful it was genuine, as the “Change In Manufacture” notice requiring all model designations to be two-digits (i.e.1894=94, 1892=92 etc.) was on March 12th, 1919. Also the Change In Manufacture notice to mark “Made in U.S.A.” in place of “Manufactured By” was on January 3rd, 1923.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
JamesP said
I will send a photo this afternoon, and I sure value the information.
I have tried to download a picture but I guess I do not understand on how to do it!!!!
Maverick said
Chuck said
Your gun is right around the transition from 1890 to 90. My guess was 666000 but that was just a guess. It definitely was in 1919. I wonder if anyone has a LR earlier than 1919??
If anyone does, I’d be doubtful it was genuine, as the “Change In Manufacture” notice requiring all model designations to be two-digits (i.e.1894=94, 1892=92 etc.) was on March 12th, 1919. Also the Change In Manufacture notice to mark “Made in U.S.A.” in place of “Manufactured By” was on January 3rd, 1923.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Thanks, I probably knew that at some point. I should have written down a lot of things I once knew. But at that time I didn’t realize what was going to happen to my memory. Now all I remember is 1919.
Chuck said
Thanks, I probably knew that at some point. I should have written down a lot of things I once knew. But at that time I didn’t realize what was going to happen to my memory. Now all I remember is 1919.
“Writing it down” avails you not unless you can also remember where you wrote it down. I try to place such notes in “logical places,” which usually means some book on that subject, though there’s often more than one that’s equally logical. One I frequently use is Madis’ little book of ser. nos., though it’s short on space. Another, if the info pertains to SSs, is DeHass’ unrivaled book on that subject (my copy is bursting its binding with notes & photocopies), except if the info pertains to Win. SSs, then Campbell would be the more logical choice.
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
“Writing it down” avails you not unless you can also remember where you wrote it down. I try to place such notes in “logical places,” which usually means some book on that subject, though there’s often more than one that’s equally logical. One I frequently use is Madis’ little book of ser. nos., though it’s short on space. Another, if the info pertains to SSs, is DeHass’ unrivaled book on that subject (my copy is bursting its binding with notes & photocopies), except if the info pertains to Win. SSs, then Campbell would be the more logical choice.
I like that idea, Clarence. A book I purchased recently has several “sticky notes” among the pages. My challenge is to remember to write it down. I reloaded for several years before I began keeping a notebook, it’s still a struggle to write things down at the end of a loading or range session.
Brings to mind the quip about “getting it all together” and forgetting where you put it.
My Model (18)90 is in the 696,000 range and safely into LR territory.
Mike
TXGunNut said My challenge is to remember to write it down.
It’s a huge challenge I still continually struggle with, which can only be met by forcing yourself to do it immediately; putting it off a day, or maybe even an hour, usually means that by that time, it will already have slipped your mind.
clarence said
TXGunNut said My challenge is to remember to write it down.
It’s a huge challenge I still continually struggle with, which can only be met by forcing yourself to do it immediately; putting it off a day, or maybe even an hour, usually means that by that time, it will already have slipped your mind.
Well gentlemen, at least now its written down on the forum. Which I suppose will last as long as this iteration of the Forum lasts. Which such like specific topics of interest might make for a nice “Sticky Note” on the forum.
I didn’t specifically have those dates written down either, but recalled that a series of Articles in “The Collector” from 1986 & 1987 mentioned them along with various other dates, markings, and codes.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
One of my biggest regrets was that I never wrote things down. I used to hang out at Roger Kurtz’s shop. He knew or had every dimension of every part. For those that don’t know Roger he was Roger’s Winchesters. He could make an entire gun and did so many times. So he had to know not only dimensions but any changes during production. Every iteration of a Winchester was somehow copied including engraving patterns. He did not make all of the parts himself but had some machinists or other Winchester collectors supply certain things for him. He was the Turnbull of the West.
JamesP said
I have tried to download a picture but I guess I do not understand on how to do it!!!!
See post #4. Bert gave you his email address to send pictures.
Thanks to all for the help, I have emailed pictures to Bert and he has identified my barrel as a mail order by the proof stamp. It does have a L.RIFLE stamp but this is not a totally uncommon thing. I have joined the group for this year and hope to be able to learn more about Winchester guns.
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