Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
Avatar
JamesP
Guest
Guests
1
December 31, 2021 - 5:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

I have a 1890 L. Rifle with a serial number that dates to 1908. I have read that Winchester made a few 1890s in long rifle before the date of 1919 and that they were stamped with the L.Rifle symbol. I also read that Winchester sold several long rifle barrels to a dealer and they (Winchester) fitted them to gallery guns. These barrels were stamped Long Rifle or LR. This gun looks to be original, but I have been fooled before. Is there any way to know or determine if this long rifle gun is correct?l 

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12735
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
December 31, 2021 - 6:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

James,

Winchester did not manufacture any standard production Model 1890/90 rifles in 22 Long Rifle before 1918, and when production of that cartridge chambering did begin, they were never marked “L. Rifle”.  If the S/N on your Model 1890 is < 330000, you can get a factory letter for it from the CFM records office, and that letter will tell you which specific .22 rim fire cartridge it was originally made for.

If you can post a link to a clear picture of the barrel markings, that will help us to solve the mystery.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
JamesP
Guest
Guests
3
December 31, 2021 - 9:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

In a book written by George Madis, The Winchester Handbook, he states that a few early rifles were produced for the long rifle cartridge and are marked for this caliber 22 L. Rifle. This is where my information comes from and my gun is stamped like this. It is not a over stamp or a barrel that has been stamped in a different location. The serial number is 337- – – which dates it 1908, I have seen only one other gun stamped like this and it was dated to 1911. I understand that there are no records for this serial number. I am wondering if anybody has any information other than what I have read. Thank you for your reply and if you have any other knowledge about these guns please let me know.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12735
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
January 1, 2022 - 5:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

James,

Unfortunately, the information published by George Madis must be viewed as “opinion”, not fact.  Based on my personal experience and observations, any Model 1890 rifle manufactured before 1918 with a 22 Long Rifle barrel on it is not factory original.  Most of them have a mail order replacement barrel (with a (P) proof mark stamp on them).  None of the original barrels were marked “22 L. Rifle”.  Instead, they were marked “22 LONG R.” or more commonly “22 LONG RIFLE”.  

According to Ned Schwing, Winchester manufactured the first experimental Model 1890 in 22 LR in the year 1915.

If you can do so, please send me a clear picture of your rifle showing the barrel markings.

Bert – [email protected]

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Location: 32000' +
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1828
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
January 1, 2022 - 5:58 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Hi James,

I can also add that the initial statement that “Winchester fitted .22 LR barrels to gallery guns” is likely incorrect.  Shooting galleries did not use the .22LR caliber as it was too powerful but, more importantly, was not offered with a “spatterless” frangible bullet like the .22 short.  As soon as it was developed, nearly all of the shooting galleries used the frangible bullets since they were safer, cheaper and did not beat up the targets near as badly.  Winchester and Remington were both leaders in the .22 short frangible bullet production.  .22 LR is simply the wrong caliber for a shooting gallery.

Also, your 337xxx serial number dates it to 1907.  There is nothing wrong in basing your knowledge on books, just make sure you are reading the right sources as new (and more correct information) is discovered every day.  Bert is simply trying to help you get the most accurate and current information as a reference.

A picture of your barrel markings would really help us determine what you have.

Best Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

http://rimfirepublications.com/  

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3524
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
January 1, 2022 - 6:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

When I was collecting these the earliest long rifle I saw was in the 666000 range.

Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1226
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
January 2, 2022 - 4:10 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Chuck said
When I was collecting these the earliest long rifle I saw was in the 666000 range.  

Chuck

Here’s one I Have that’s 633037. A fairy early 22 LR that still has the full Model 1890 model designation and the “22 Long R.” caliber stamp.  I’ve always liked it because it’s the end of the 1890 and the start of the 22 LR overlapping, so to speak. 

IMG_3290.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_3291.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Avatar
JamesP
Guest
Guests
8
January 2, 2022 - 12:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

I will send a photo this afternoon, and I sure value the information.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3524
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
January 2, 2022 - 6:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

pdog72 said

Chuck

Here’s one I Have that’s 633037. A fairy early 22 LR that still has the full Model 1890 model designation and the “22 Long R.” caliber stamp.  I’ve always liked it because it’s the end of the 1890 and the start of the 22 LR overlapping, so to speak. 

IMG_3290.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_3291.jpgImage Enlarger  

Your gun is right around the transition from 1890 to 90.  My guess was 666000 but that was just a guess.  It definitely was in 1919.  I wonder if anyone has a LR earlier than 1919??

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2019
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
January 3, 2022 - 8:27 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Chuck said

Your gun is right around the transition from 1890 to 90.  My guess was 666000 but that was just a guess.  It definitely was in 1919.  I wonder if anyone has a LR earlier than 1919??  

If anyone does, I’d be doubtful it was genuine, as the “Change In Manufacture” notice requiring all model designations to be two-digits (i.e.1894=94, 1892=92 etc.) was on March 12th, 1919.  Also the Change In Manufacture notice to mark “Made in U.S.A.” in place of “Manufactured By” was on January 3rd, 1923.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
JamesP
Guest
Guests
11
January 5, 2022 - 3:20 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

JamesP said
I will send a photo this afternoon, and I sure value the information.  

I have tried to download a picture but I guess I do not understand on how to do it!!!!

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3524
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
January 5, 2022 - 6:18 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Maverick said

Chuck said

Your gun is right around the transition from 1890 to 90.  My guess was 666000 but that was just a guess.  It definitely was in 1919.  I wonder if anyone has a LR earlier than 1919??  

If anyone does, I’d be doubtful it was genuine, as the “Change In Manufacture” notice requiring all model designations to be two-digits (i.e.1894=94, 1892=92 etc.) was on March 12th, 1919.  Also the Change In Manufacture notice to mark “Made in U.S.A.” in place of “Manufactured By” was on January 3rd, 1923.

Sincerely,

Maverick  

Thanks, I probably knew that at some point.  I should have written down a lot of things I once knew.  But at that time I didn’t realize what was going to happen to my memory.  Now all I remember is 1919.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4321
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
January 5, 2022 - 7:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Chuck said

Thanks, I probably knew that at some point.  I should have written down a lot of things I once knew.  But at that time I didn’t realize what was going to happen to my memory.  Now all I remember is 1919.  

“Writing it down” avails you not unless you can also remember where you wrote it down.  I try to place such notes in “logical places,” which usually means some book on that subject, though there’s often more than one that’s equally logical.  One I frequently use is Madis’ little book of ser. nos., though it’s short on space.  Another, if the info pertains to SSs, is DeHass’ unrivaled book on that subject (my copy is bursting its binding with notes & photocopies), except if the info pertains to Win. SSs, then Campbell would be the more logical choice.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3904
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
January 6, 2022 - 3:18 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

clarence said

“Writing it down” avails you not unless you can also remember where you wrote it down.  I try to place such notes in “logical places,” which usually means some book on that subject, though there’s often more than one that’s equally logical.  One I frequently use is Madis’ little book of ser. nos., though it’s short on space.  Another, if the info pertains to SSs, is DeHass’ unrivaled book on that subject (my copy is bursting its binding with notes & photocopies), except if the info pertains to Win. SSs, then Campbell would be the more logical choice.  

 

I like that idea, Clarence. A book I purchased recently has several “sticky notes” among the pages. My challenge is to remember to write it down. I reloaded for several years before I began keeping a notebook, it’s still a struggle to write things down at the end of a loading or range session. 

Brings to mind the quip about “getting it all together” and forgetting where you put it. 

My Model (18)90 is in the 696,000 range and safely into LR territory.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4321
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
January 6, 2022 - 4:58 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

TXGunNut said  My challenge is to remember to write it down.

It’s a huge challenge I still continually struggle with, which can only be met by forcing yourself to do it immediately; putting it off a day, or maybe even an hour, usually means that by that time, it will already have slipped your mind. 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2019
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
January 6, 2022 - 3:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

clarence said

TXGunNut said  My challenge is to remember to write it down.

It’s a huge challenge I still continually struggle with, which can only be met by forcing yourself to do it immediately; putting it off a day, or maybe even an hour, usually means that by that time, it will already have slipped your mind.   

Well gentlemen, at least now its written down on the forum. Which I suppose will last as long as this iteration of the Forum lasts. Which such like specific topics of interest might make for a nice “Sticky Note” on the forum.

I didn’t specifically have those dates written down either, but recalled that a series of Articles in “The Collector” from 1986 & 1987 mentioned them along with various other dates, markings, and codes. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3524
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
January 6, 2022 - 7:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

One of my biggest regrets was that I never wrote things down.  I used to hang out at Roger Kurtz’s shop. He knew or had every dimension of every part.  For those that don’t know Roger he was Roger’s Winchesters.  He could make an entire gun and did so many times.  So he had to know not only dimensions but any changes during production.  Every iteration of a Winchester was somehow copied including engraving patterns.  He did not make all of the parts himself but had some machinists or other Winchester collectors supply certain things for him.  He was the Turnbull of the West.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3524
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
January 6, 2022 - 8:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

JamesP said

I have tried to download a picture but I guess I do not understand on how to do it!!!!  

See post #4.  Bert gave you his email address to send pictures.

Avatar
New Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1
Member Since:
January 6, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
January 8, 2022 - 1:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Thanks to all for the help, I have emailed pictures to Bert and he has identified my barrel as a mail order by the proof stamp. It does have a L.RIFLE stamp but this is not a totally uncommon thing. I have joined the group for this year and hope to be able to learn more about Winchester guns.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12735
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
January 8, 2022 - 7:14 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Here are the pictures…

Mail-order-Barrel-22-L.-Rifle.jpgImage EnlargerMail-Order-Barrel.jpgImage Enlarger

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 628
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 85
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
1873man: 5185
clarence: 4321
TXGunNut: 3904
Chuck: 3524
steve004: 3117
twobit: 2846
Maverick: 2019
JWA: 1828
Big Larry: 1765
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 16
Topics: 10429
Posts: 89895

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1433
Members: 11521
Moderators: 3
Admins: 3
Navigation