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The dark side of restore or clone
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April 14, 2023 - 2:31 am
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 On EBAY now are the dies to make a Model 97 into a trench gun. Winchester 97 Trenchgun, Stamps, Metal stamps to convert any 97 to Trenchgun. The seller is proud of how many trench guns he’s made. Worth a minute to read the add. T/R

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April 14, 2023 - 3:32 am
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Is it really “Restoring”? I don’t even know of “Clone” is the right word. Seems like a straight forward definition for fraud.

If he had these dies made, What prevents him from making them again? Or anyone else for that matter?

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 14, 2023 - 4:36 am
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TR said Worth a minute to read the add. T/R
  

It IS: truly the most frank & shocking “celebration” of fraud I’ve ever encountered!  Yes, of course, all experienced military collectors know such dies have been in circulation for yrs (but discreetly, like porn before Playboy), but to see them paraded in this blatant, shameless, manner takes my breath away!  However, I’m glad he did so, as maybe it will open the eyes of the ignorant.

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April 14, 2023 - 4:39 am
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Maverick said
Seems like a straight forward definition for fraud. 

Right out of the dictionary.

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April 14, 2023 - 11:43 am
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clarence said

  

 I’m glad he did so, as maybe it will open the eyes of the ignorant.

  

  Well said Clarence.

  Original finish and know the die marking is key to collecting. It’s only original once. T/R

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April 14, 2023 - 3:41 pm
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I recall the late Keith Cochran (Colt Single Action Army collector and author) telling me that nearly all U.S. martial Colt single action cavalry revolvers had been “helped” or outright faked.  

I know that many modern versions of the U.S. army stock cartouches have been available for years and have been used to fake or upgrade trapdoor Springfields, as well as martial Colt revolvers.

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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April 14, 2023 - 4:14 pm
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Seller ended listing.  Did someone complain?  I’d have preferred it remained listed as long as possible, that more collectors might have seen it.  Worst result of such faking is that nice sporting shotguns that a bird hunter would enjoy shooting are turned into useless wall-hangers.

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April 14, 2023 - 6:46 pm
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94CF085F-4B32-4AAB-AC11-33479762E0BB.jpegImage EnlargerBill Hockett said
I recall the late Keith Cochran (Colt Single Action Army collector and author) telling me that nearly all U.S. martial Colt single action cavalry revolvers had been “helped” or outright faked.  

I know that many modern versions of the U.S. army stock cartouches have been available for years and have been used to fake or upgrade trapdoor Springfields, as well as martial Colt revolvers.  

A great number have been, but, by no means, is it “nearly all”.  You have to study these and know what you are doing before stepping into this minefield.

Here’s one with a Kopec Gold Seal of Approval letter and yes, since the photographs were taken, the hammer and trigger have been fixed so that it operates mechanically soundly.

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April 14, 2023 - 6:48 pm
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April 14, 2023 - 6:50 pm
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April 14, 2023 - 7:14 pm
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  The link is still up. I will say at least this guy is honest about the intent of the dies.

  Most gun restorer or gun doctors have a die maker he uses to make what he needs. The problem is when they use them to add something that wasn’t there. That’s why if you don’t know what your looking at, get help. T/R

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April 14, 2023 - 7:33 pm
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Roger Kurtz told me that with the modern computers and tools all you need is an example of a real stamp or barrel address etc.  Then exact copies of the tool or roll die can be made.  If it is worth money someone has copied it.

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April 14, 2023 - 8:38 pm
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TR said
  The link is still up. I will say at least this guy is honest about the intent of the dies. 

Link can still be viewed, but listing has been ended; not active, in other words.  If you’re attempting to sell repro dies, what else can you do but describe their intended purpose?

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April 15, 2023 - 11:04 am
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Chuck said
Roger Kurtz told me that with the modern computers and tools all you need is an example of a real stamp or barrel address etc.  Then exact copies of the tool or roll die can be made.  If it is worth money someone has copied it.

  

 Very true Chuck. But the thing we have going for us is a cell phone camera, you take a picture and blow it up, everything shows. The original dies were hand made so with magnification you see the tells. When I started collecting I took my guns to a very experienced senior collector. The first thing he did when he looked at a gun was the markings.

 When you find the non Winchester mark, take a picture and save it. Just like this guy, it will be used again. If your into model 97’s you might want to save this add.

  Roger’s dies had tells to, The tipping T in CT. T/R

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April 15, 2023 - 1:24 pm
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TR said  Roger’s dies had tells to, The tipping T in CT. T/R

Sonny France used one which misspelled “Manufactured”!  The second “u” was omitted.  Yet unless you had some reason to be looking closely at it, it was very easy to miss, which at least one buyer did.  It was about 40 yrs ago that I saw it, at the shop of a gunsmith who’d ordered it from Sonny, so there was no doubt about its origin. 

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April 15, 2023 - 2:03 pm
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Could someone post a link or address to this ad? I have searched active and completed auctions with no luck.

Thanks, Steve

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April 15, 2023 - 2:45 pm
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seewin said
Could someone post a link or address to this ad? I have searched active and completed auctions with no luck.

Thanks, Steve

  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134526828296?nma=true&si=%252BT7hJv9ttCfTv0OdyYZM1DlJugg%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

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April 15, 2023 - 2:56 pm
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Thanks Clarence. I did notice in his pictures that his “definitive” proof stamp did not match the proof stamp on the barrel of the shotgun with the x’d out choke designation. 

 

Steve

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April 15, 2023 - 9:20 pm
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TR said

Chuck said

Roger Kurtz told me that with the modern computers and tools all you need is an example of a real stamp or barrel address etc.  Then exact copies of the tool or roll die can be made.  If it is worth money someone has copied it.

  

 Very true Chuck. But the thing we have going for us is a cell phone camera, you take a picture and blow it up, everything shows. The original dies were hand made so with magnification you see the tells. When I started collecting I took my guns to a very experienced senior collector. The first thing he did when he looked at a gun was the markings.

 When you find the non Winchester mark, take a picture and save it. Just like this guy, it will be used again. If your into model 97’s you might want to save this add.

  Roger’s dies had tells to, The tipping T in CT. T/R

  

We have talked about this before.  I just don’t see or look at Roger guns.   Roger wasn’t trying to fool anyone but some of his customers surely did.

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