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Maverick and 1873man;
The animal depicted in the Macro Photo number 382 looks more to me like Wiley Coyote or perhaps a Masonic Seahorse. I’ve a question to ask. Are all these guys with the Masonic stuff related? Did you know that some of the Ulrichs and others engraved at home doing various jobs for private customers? Perhaps this is where the Masonic symbols were put on their work. By working off Winchester property they got to keep the full price, not just their salary. Of coarse if Winchester got wind of this they would be gone. Now one more time for Left Field. The engravers, especially in the early days were hired mainly to make ” DIES “, not embellish a companies products. Gustov Young worked on the Colt property by RENTING space from Colt. He was not a Colt employee. His main source of income was both DIE Making and Engraving. He worked on a PIECEWORK BASIS charging Colt for his time. In other words, there was no time for screwing around with symbols or whatever. They had very little spare time to “Hang Out”. In other words, NO WORK, NO PAY! They WERE NOT CONSIDERED ARTISTS in those days, just skilled WORKERS hired to produce what the company at any given time needed most. Do the math and then decide. There were about 720,000+ Model 1873 Winchesters produced from 1873 to around 1923. ( 50 yrs. ) How many of the ’73s were engraved? Or the 1866s, ’76s, ’86s, ’92s or 1894s? Do you think you could maintain all the Ulrich, and other engravers families over the years on engraved firearms alone? Although I do see some of the things, mostly numbers like #382 that is being pointed out, I doubt they had the time to put them on their firearm engravings. Also, looking at these photos of #382, they look to be acid etched and not engraved at all. That would take more time and effort. Makes no sense to me.
Apache ( ya ta hey )
I am a Mason. That “All-Seeing Eye” in the scrollwork in the first link is not an eye at all. The square and compasses are just hash marks that form an approximate pattern and are too sloppy.
It’s very common for people, both Masons and non-Masons, to see Masonic symbols where there aren’t any. In fact, the Eye is not an exclusively Masonic symbol, but is actually the Eye of Providence, and has been used to represent the watching nature of God. Its most famous misinterpretation as a Masonic symbol is the Great Seal of the United States.
American Masons didn’t (and don’t) hide their symbols in such an obsure manner. The signature in the second link is a perfect example.
But people will see what they want to see.
All men have fears. The brave put down their fears and go forward, sometimes to death but always to victory.
Old guns are like old cars and old men. They are meant to be taken out and used from time to time, not locked away or put on display in a museum.
I’m not seeing in any of the correlations in the first link.
In the second link, the signature “J.Salerno” does have a Masonic Symbol in the letter “A”. And this is due to the fact that Jasper Salerno was a Mason. He was employed by Winchester from 1968-1977. Certainly not the “Golden Age of Engraving”, as Wilson puts it. And Salerno did a lot of outside or non-factory work in his life. From everything I’ve been told, Winchester had a pretty strict policy about signing work. And that it was not done in the manner as shown in the 2nd link. And that this is most certainly out-side work.
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S.
Old School Said
By the way that the reason it sold for so much is it was a centerpiece for the worlds fair Centenial in 1876. It had been photographed and the Cowens auction representative found the photograph with original written up worlds fair records with the serial number. INDISPUTABLE. He is a high ranking, Masonic knights templer.
Proofs in the pudding! Where is the pudding?
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
To All;
All of a sudden there are these mystic signs and symbols coming out of the woodwork, these to be found on engraved Winchesters, Colts and numerous other manufacturer’s firearms. In a short while I’m expecting to find “AUTHENTIC”, newly discovered engraved firearms for sale on the market. All this based on what we’ve seen and read here. Be VERY SURE of what you’re contemplating buying. Caveat Emptor should apply here.
Apache ( ya ta hey )
Apache,JB and others, I was not going to say anything here, but it seems as if some have missed it. It is Not All of a sudden there are mystic signs and symbols. They have existed for a very long time. Not only on Winchester’s and colts, but put on all sorts of armament and other relics for thousands of years. Obviously some of YOU do not know what your looking at. I must say, neither did I until I was shown. Gary Gianotti and others have PROVEN this symbolism true, as we have all seen on ancient relics. If any of you wish, Gary would be willing to take on anything you wish to ask or know. He told me so. If any of you think different, or doubt, bring it on case by case. He is willing to listen and educate you in the meanings of these symbols. Gary has been given awards for Historical research from General Arthur st Claire Masonic Museum in PA. He was also a member and trustee on the board of directors for the National Museum ofAmerican Revolution. He knows what he is looking at. Listen guys, Right here, on this forum, a bunch of people Commented on a 1873 Winchester rifle made for the 1876 Centenial worlds Fair. Some of you said it wasn’t a factory Gun. Even Pauline said it did not look authentic.. Well, that Gun was engraved by Ulrich, not only proven to be authentic, but was one of the first million dollar rifles… This is very serious guys. If you really don’t know, as the old saying goes, keep quiet and listen, then ask questions. Too many relics and guns are devalued .. One of the few times I ever spoke with George madis, he said to me, expect the unexpected, especially with Winchester as they would do whatever a customer wanted, but did not advocate that. They just did it. Sure some rifles can only be attributed to certain engravers,but some have genuine makers marks. Same on factory smoke plates. Either way, these old engraved rifles should be highly valued. Just like the million dollar rifle. CRIPES ! if the freaken guy listened to some of the comments here, he may have gotten a few thousand instead of a million for an AUTHENTIC WINCHESTER CENTENIAL RIFLE…Meditate on that for a while.. here is a refresher on the forum comments…. https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/Model+73+%26quot%3Bmade+for+1876+Centennial+Exhibition%26quot%3B/
By the way that the reason it sold for so much is it was a centerpiece for the worlds fair Centenial in 1876. It had been photographed and the Cowens auction representative found the photograph with original written up worlds fair records with the serial number. INDISPUTABLE. He is a high ranking, Masonic knights templer.
Old School, a couple points:
First off, there is no such thing as a high ranking Masonic knights templar. That’s a common misconception among the uninformed. The different titles and degrees attached only represent the various esoteric lessons one has participated in. They do not connote or convey any power or authority over any other Mason beyond any ceremonial office he may hold.
Second, on those alleged symbols in the first link you provided. That “eye” in the scrollwork is not an eye. I suggest studying *real* Masonic art and symbols to see how the All Seeing Eye is depicted. And that alleged square and compasses highlighted among the crosshatching is so sloppily done that any engraver worth his salt would be embarrased by it, doubly so one who is a Mason. It’s no more intentional than a cloud formation.
It is very easy to see things where one WANTS to see them. Believe me, Masons are just as guilty as it as anyone else. Unfortunately, this is one of those cases.
I know I won’t be able to convince you otherwise, I only hope that someday you will come to understand what I’m trying to explain.
All men have fears. The brave put down their fears and go forward, sometimes to death but always to victory.
Old guns are like old cars and old men. They are meant to be taken out and used from time to time, not locked away or put on display in a museum.
I see Apache must be studying the serial numbers with Wile Coyote etched into. Sort of looks like that don’t it? A lot of the imaging is cartoonish. I can show you the same image on other Ulrich rifles. You are correct about the etching under the buttplates, but it is much more fantastic than just that. There were several different types of embellishment to arms other than the actual engraving. It wasn’t just the Ulrich family doing it, just probably the most as far as firearms we all know and own.
Apache, As far as implying that myself or anybody else advocating or doing this research is faking these types of embellishment or engraving or planning some big release of counterfeit rifles is way off base. I really thought you would figure this stuff out instead of say something like that. Myself, Gary G. and a few others are trying to show you and everyone else something fantastic that has been overlooked, not seen, not understood or just plain beaten down by people that either don’t understand and wont take time to figure it out. Why don’t you send me some good pictures of your engraved Marlin. Maybe there is some “hidden” art on that one. It sure would make a believer of you in a hurry if you could be coached on finding and figuring out how to start to get your own images from your own rifles. Same goes for anybody else. The etchings and the shading also contain their makers marks. Its the basis of their esoteric art. There are hundreds of makers marks and variations of the Ulrich family’s on many of the rifles they worked on. I am meaning HUNDREDS on a single rifle when you include all the forms of embellishment. I so hope everyone reading this starts working on figuring this out and accepting that it is a very big part of verification of authenticity so we can move on to the really amazing stuff. Like what are the images telling us? Can the hidden art and etching actually verify ownership of who its inscribed to? AND The question I want the answer to which is; How is this even humanly possible?
Anyway…. The etched serial number picture is only a small part of whats there. The entire underside of the buttplate is covered with esoteric images. Following is a partial interpretation of the Wile Coyote picture in a previous post. At this point this is what I am seeing.
Just dealing with what is on top of the numbers, I interpret them to be this; Coming around the 2 are three “guardant lions” with head of a griffon as lower part of 2 behind them.
Between 2 and 6 is a standing lion (King Edward the Second) pointing at a running fox in front of him (symbol of a powerful king) and over the 6. The fox is being bitten in the torso by a griffon (Edward the 3rd personal badge). The standing lion is made up of a Cardinal at the bottom looking over its left shoulder with a cross on its back. On top of that I am thinking is the head of a bearded man with reference to the “Barbati Fratres”. Wolf face also appears on the chest of the cardinal.
Between the 3 and 6, under foxes front feet is an eagles nest with fledglings (the U.S.) on top of a boars head. (sign of ignorance). Between fox and wolfs head over the 3 is a flying eagle over the nest.
The wolfs head (symbolic of a young mason) is made up with top of the 3. Bottom jaw is a staircase (path to enlightenment) with two figures halfway up. All seeing eye at the corner of mouth with light at the end of path to left of that. Another boars head in the wolfs mouth.
If you notice the eyes of the characters are mostly “lit up”. This is telling you that you are in or near the correct magnification, light type and direction as well as viewing angle.
This is extraordinary stuff and there is much more that is just out of focus.
I believe I have identified the marks of Gustave Young, Both Conrad the elder and for sure his son Conrad, John, Herman, Rudolph, Augustus, Alden and Leslie. This rifle could be a “holy grail” of makers marks and variations.
I know its not easy to recognize these symbols without knowledge of what they are and may reference to begin with. It takes some work and interaction with the artwork. Its what was intended. True enjoyment of the artwork through the interaction with it. Not to mention its another layer of anti-counterfeiting of their work. Completely the contrary to Apaches suggestion. Someone can hardly copy what they don’t know is there to begin with.
A lot of it looks cartoonish because of the size. Engraving is like a mural, or painting. When looked at up close it does not have the form as when you look at it from farther away. Paintings are like that, you have to stand back. I have a Buffalo in the background of my rifle that looks like a cartoon until rifle is pulled away. That’s because the Buffalo is about half the size of the head on a dime.so when you magnify it changes a lot.
JB,
you do not have to be rough on Old School. Yes he is not a Mason and is not familiar with degrees or Masonic symbolism! But he is familiar with esoteric Christian Masonic Guild artists and has been learning for some time. You and I do not want a shooting match on the Great Seal, last I checked! Dr. Hieronimus and myself are the most recognized scholars on the subject internationally.
You would not be doing Masonry a service, especially Scottish Masonic Guild engraving from association of the great seal maker Robert Scot whos company he founded. The still in operation American Bamknote company that directly had Young, Ulrichs and others directly associated with their teaching. In fact you would be doing a disservice to Masonic guild engraving on guns if you go there and try to disprove the art being there and it’s factual meanings!
I have spent vast hours as a non-Mason working with The creation of the General Arthur ST. Clair FreeMasoniic Library and Museum. My work there is the establishment and preservation of some of the most vital books written by Freemason on the Military Freemason Lodges which I dubbed The American CrossRoads of Freemasonry, a place for international Freemasons who want to know the truth about Who controlled and established all of it and how it was used to create the identity of the United States. Ohhh and it was who establish the charters of Freemasonry In the 17th-18th century. So yes what your were taught has been one big lie with all the symbolism of the United States. Called The Royal scam with the deposed sovereigns! You ever hold the earliest surviving Masonic Seal in the Country? I have….
Gary
BJ watch this video of Scottish historical historian Richard Cooper who says in this video That Scottish don’t acknowledge American Freemasonry! Adding mr Cooper is the direct grandson of the teach of the great seal maker who was a trustee to his estate when he died! Talking secret Royal bloodlines, keepers of knowledge! When this is where the evolution of gun art originated with colt and Winchester via their Masonic Guilds. Cooper will not tell you about the charter origins and the Royals, he might make mention.
Ever wonder why the Scottish won’t ackowledge American Maronry, York Rite or Scottish Rite? listen to cooper and remember your learnings are not theirs who planted the engraving school and controlled the guilds of art in America!
Gentlemen,
Please take your Masonic opinion arguments elsewhere. This is a Winchester oriented website, and all discussions relating to the history and collecting of such are welcome.
Bert – WACA Admin
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Burt, Winchester’s daughter was a Female Masonic scholar her house in California with her odd ball Beliefs! You can not shut this topic down because it is Masonic in origin that allowed Winchester families to prosperous! It’s all associated to factual history to Winchester and is 100% Winchester history, respectfully to you Burt!
[email protected] said
Burt, Winchester’s daughter was a Female Masonic scholar her house in California with her odd ball Beliefs! You can not shut this topic down because it is Masonic in origin that allowed Winchester families to prosperous! It’s all associated to factual history to Winchester and is 100% Winchester history, respectfully to you Burt!
Gary,
You are sadly mistaken! I most certainly can shut down this topic, and will do so immediately if you insist on arguing about Masonic issues. This forum is specifically for Winchester collectors, and the pursuit and knowledge of Winchesters.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wait a minute, I thought This was a discussion about Winchester engraving . It is opinion, and should be up for discussion. It is Completely relevant. People are starting to see that there were makers marks and artwork that came from the guilds. A lot of people are seeing that in the collector world of Guns such as this Winchester Collectors site. Why in heavens name would this not be relevant? We apologize if some people don’t see it, or want to believe it, but it does not detract that the history of this artwork is factual, and it can be proven with historical facts. If some are uncomfortable, they are not forced to participate in the discussion. It is real.. I have been going to gun shows and there are collectors now aware of this. It’s starting to be talked about there. It’s only discussion. I am sure we all believe in open discussion, right ? especially if it is relevant to WINCHESTER collecting. If I have been disrespectful, I apologize also. If this discussion is shut down, that would be harmful to the Winchester History, And detrimental to collectors.
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