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Hello all, just wanted to see if any of You know about the extensive use in Masonic symbols in the early and turn of the century Winchester Engravings ? Would love to hear from any of those who may know about it. Some pretty exiting discoveries have been observed on Documented Guns. It is Truly Remarkable and would like to know if any of you studied this ?..
Would love to see some examples of what your taking about? I’ve never seen a Winchester with the Square & Compass or the All Seeing Eye, but doesn’t mean its not out there.
I have seen some with the swastika symbols on them, of course they were prior to Adolf Hitler’s use of the symbol.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Hey Maverick, How are ya doing ? Go to this Link and check the last 4 or 5 posts about the Ulrich’s being Masonic guild MASTERS. This connects all the way back to the Philadelphia Scottish masonic Guild. Quite the reading ,,As a matter of fact an Absolute Must read. I believe this may be the future of the preservation of American Firearms engraving with the lost history of the American Guilds.Check out the 1892 Teddy Roosevelt rifle which is mine. Also He has the J.Salerno sighned rifle with the Masonic Compass and all seeing eye in the Compass. Check it out on His website..https://americanrelichysteries.wordpress.com/2016/09/05/the-ulrich-engraved-annie-oakley-winchester-masonic-all-seeing-eye-found-lodge-number-79-in-two-locations-teddy-roosevelts-matching-makers-mark-to-oakleys-winchester-by-leslie-ulrich/
Here is the link to Jasper Salerno Masonic symbol in his engraved signature, Amazing,,Make sure You scroll down….https://americanrelichysteries.wordpress.com/2016/09/07/exhibit-a-winchester-engraver-jasper-salerno-places-masonic-symbol-on-the-a-of-his-last-name/
Online
I looked at the links and the first one it looks like your trying to see stuff in the scratches and use your imagination to make something out of it. The second link is obvious with the compass and eye. I like that.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
There is one at Old West Guns in Redding, Ca.
brother Rich the owner has it on display.
44
trVlin’
1873man said
I looked at the links and the first one it looks like your trying to see stuff in the scratches and use your imagination to make something out of it. The second link is obvious with the compass and eye. I like that.Bob
I agree with Bob here, I think the first link you posted is reaching way out in left field and the second post the symbol is pretty plain and obvious.’
I try to see if I can’t find so of the other symbols I’ve seen before and post about them.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
To both Maverick and 1873 Man, thank You for Your input. Before I explain what Gary Gianotti has identified as makers marks and Masonic symbolism, I need to know which marks You mean and we can take it case by case if You so wish and I will see if I can get Gary to come on site.. Gary has studied masonic symbolism and is an Acknowledged and credited by Masonic museums who come to Him for identification of relics and affiliate member of the General Arthur St Claire Masonic Museum in Greensburg PA, These masons are linked to the origins of free masonry of America through the Millitary Lodges. So what I am saying to both of You is that what You and Myself see and what look’s to us as lines, scratches and wierd marks are in FACT Masonic makers marks ,symbols, cipher’s and squigly line Talisman marks which are all related and Documented from thousands of relics into the 18th century,.. I personally did not know myself until I spoke with Gary and researched it for myself. The problem both You and I have is most people can identify Factory engraving. I mean all you have to do is just pick up wilson and a few others books.. “One Problem” I recently learned most have No idea exactly what they are looking at when it comes to the masonic symbolism. We are basically Clueless or at least I am ..The Ulrichs are documented as hardcore masons and masonic Guilds and Herman Ulrich was a part of the American Bank note Co. which was the heart of the masonic Guild that controlled the Guilds traced back to Scotland. Bottom line Most have ABSOLUTELY No clue what they are looking at even with the Documented smoke plate guns that were manipulated with masonic symbols. “YES”, Masonic symbolism on documented Smoke plate Factory Guns.. Listen guy’s an all seeing eye and a compass are only one of dozens of masonic symbols.. That is a FACT. but again if You have not studied Masonic engraving symbolism, how would one know and thus one would have absolutely no say in this matter unless of course You are an acknowledged acedemic scholar in masonry engravings such as Gary Gianotti. Gary will be giving lectures in the near future and will be possibly putting out a book on masonic engravings on Factory and Non factory American arms engraving and will explain much better than I ever could, but I am learning… .. Thank You
I have a problem making out any of the marks in the first link. The pictures would need to be magnified a lot more to even try to see a pattern.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I find this topic interesting but would find it questionable as to why it would be done. Granted I’m not a mason and your correct in your assumption that I don’t have the first clue as to all the masonic symbols used.
I suppose the main concern and the issue is whether or not such markings are done by the original engraver or done after the fact? Or just merely happenstance gouges and marks on top of the original engravings.
Intrigued to learn more.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Not sure about what You are not seeing. LOL ! .. I know it is hard sometimes, especially with the images..Some of the marks are subtle and very tiny, some are unmistakable. He has many many more documented and He will be showing them. as I stated it takes someone who knows what they are looking at . Trust Me, at first I was bewildered until I started to learn what these things meant from documented symbols and also why they were put there and incorporated into the artwork. After I started to learn why they were there and how they were incorporated I could start to identify some and It is very cool. Bob, do Not expect to be able to figure out what You are seing when in fact You may not know what You are looking at in the first place. What looks like a squigley line to You could be a Talisman mark and if You have not studied it You would have No idea.This manipulation is NOT unique to Winchester engraving as this manipulation of symbols can be traced back to the guilds and thousands of examples shown. Gary has spent Years and Years in this field. He started with the earlier period and has now gone into the 19th century which He says is much easier because there is more information on the engravers. What lodges they belonged to associations etc.. Most of the symbolism was manipulated into the engraving artwork, and unless You know what to look for You would have trouble. Let us admit it, if it were easy, Museums would be calling You and I to figure out these makers Marks and sybols on early Historical relics. Heck they would do it themselves. Gary does it for Free because He does Not want this history lost. He also says a lot of American firearms have been devalued because people are unaware of the importance of such guns. some more special than others. He found the first Ulrich spelled in block letters less than half the size of a tic tac..Check out the pics. Coins ,Currency,medals etc were all done this way also.. It all started from the Engraving Guilds. he has documented all seeing eyes, lodge numbers all sorts of really cool stuff to be presented.
Maverick, According to Gary All Guns factory or non factory engraved by the Guild masonic engravers had some sort of Manipulation of Ciphers and symbols incorporated into the artwork . Including smoke plate guns. Some extensive and some were subtle. Maverick Look at the Buffalo of Teddy’s 1876 rifle on Gary’s blog with the great seal proposal design. Look at the buffalo’s ear, it is an all seeing eye, tonight Gary is going to post Annies Gun with better image of all seeing eye incorporated into the art as well. Gary posted Jasper Salerno’s signed rifle to show blatantly the all seeing eye in the Compass. Notice how the all seeing eye is incorporated in the Compass. He showed it so the average person could see it and know..The left of the signature two scroll marks are both masonic eyes. The Masonic meaning of this is ” Both Eyes are watching YOU” or Society..
I know this is an older post, but I have great interest in this subject and own several rifles with the Masonic symbols in the engraving as well as images both on the wood and metal. It is as mentioned of trying to see images amongst the scratches and shading. The symbolism included in the engraving is very linear and easy to pick out after you know what to look for. Imaging on the wood is more difficult to clearly see. There are indicators for the presence of an image, usually tiny pieces of silver or gold pressed into the wood at certain angles. When you find such an indicator they are sometimes actually a very tiny makers mark visible under magnification. Once the image is located there will be another light direction indicator as well as a viewing point usually indicated by an an eye shape, whether it is a discoloration or impression. Your eye matches the “eye” in the wood. When the viewing point is found and the direction of applied light according indicator (may only appear as a scratch) you are left with focus or magnification of that particular image. I have been able to picture some of these and when you get it right the detail is amazing and follow certain subject lines. One 1866 I have may have well over 100 images on the wood alone. There are makers marks of John, Conrad, Herman, Alden and Leslie clearly found. Truly a work of art. Some of the work seems near impossible. (We are calling this one “The Ulrich Codex” as it was certainly a generational work that took many years)
Along with the imaging in the wood there is also images on the metal surfaces and some that incorporate both. There are also polished images throughout the engraving area and often under the butt plate. On the “Ulrich Codex” every bump, scratch and discoloration is relevant. I am currently working on deciphering it all and getting pictures of as many images as possible.
This is a “for real” subject and I am quite surprised that it isn’t more widely known. These rifles are way past any so called factory engraved work and a literal lifetime could be spent in discovery and documentation of a single firearm. Eventually this will be commonly recognized and a new gold rush will be on.
Anyone seeking help with detecting these on your rifle or having relevant information that may help is welcome to contact me at [email protected]
These engravers must have had lots of spare time on their hands to do special work the company wasn’t paying them to do. And unless the gun was being sold to someone knowledgeable enough to recognize & appreciate all these subtle touches, it would appear to be wasted effort.
Incidentally, though I never noticed it before, it seems someone has placed Masonic symbols in the tool bar (or whatever it’s called) at the top of this page: both the “all-seeing eye” & the Alpha & Omega symbols.
Off and on they did have a lot of time on their hands. I think they often did things just to further their craft or pass on knowledge. Later using those rifles as presentation pieces for fellow Masons.
You are spot on about the Masonic rifles being built for certain people or individuals that knew what they were and meant. Some possibly being presented by lodges to members for certain achievements. Hence the lodge numbers etc.
The least they are is extraordinary works of esoteric art and some truly masterpieces of engraving.
A purist collector wants to put a number and document on a rifle to determine its value. Engraved rifles especially of known masters command top dollar. The more work the better. The factory rifles are done and paid for on a hourly/daily basis. This limits the amount of detail that can be done with some type of time constraints. Regardless, the artwork done adds value to the rifle. Basically put you are collecting or investing in documented art.
This said; How does a work of art by a certain master become worth less because they worked on it for years instead of days? Scratching away on it when work wasn’t available or using them as a teaching method for their successors. Many documented factory engraved rifles are a matter of speculation or elimination as to who did the work. The engravers makers marks are used to identify the engraver making the rifle a document in itself. That same method of identification applies to any rifle engraved by that particular person. If it looks like a Picasso and it’s signed by Picasso. Isn’t it a Picasso? Or rather an Ulrich, Nimschke or Young.
Clarence, actually, all the factory smoke plate engravings from Winchester already had the Masonic artwork incorporated into it. So no extra effort, unless it was really custom one of a kind. Punches were already made so all they had to do was punch it as they went. Those punches were hard to make. Not using them. This is definitely the future as it is a FACT that the Winchester engravers did quite a bit of special work outside the Factory. Sad that for so many years they were dismissed and not revered as Some of the most important rifles ever made. For instance one was listed here and sold for over a million bucks and was dismissed by many if not all of you as not factory when indeed it was. The man who sold it did some digging and found it was made for exhibition by Winchester. I believe this is the future and if the people who do not know of the engraving history and guilds and what makers marks and symbolism mean, well they should either learn or get out of the way. They have no business even assessing engraving. Because of this error, I believe many if not thousands of guns have been extremely devalued as well as the history of it.. I had the opportunity to speak with The Man, George Maddis and at the time I was wet behind the ears in Winchester collecting. Two things I remember him saying, one was that He said Although Winchester did not always admit this they would do whatever a customer wanted and expect the unexpected. He also asked me if I ever studied engraving or the artwork ? I said no, he then told me that there was more to the designs and artwork and he was aware of the hidden artwork. Told me he did a bit himself. I had NO CLUE what he was talking about. NOW I do. He would have loved to see the progress being made if he were around today. I am sure of it. I also believe he would be advocating this study..
“ This said; How does a work of art by a certain master become worth less because they worked on it for years instead of days? Scratching away on it when work wasn’t available or using them as a teaching method for their successors. Many documented factory engraved rifles are a matter of speculation or elimination as to who did the work. The engravers makers marks are used to identify the engraver making the rifle a document in itself. That same method of identification applies to any rifle engraved by that particular person. If it looks like a Picasso and it’s signed by Picasso. Isn’t it a Picasso? Or rather an Ulrich, Nimschke or Young. “
Great lesson in engraving and it’s certainty. Regarding identification, going back before the Winchester engravers, I believe Samuel Hoggson did the engraving for the Henrys. Maybe others. I have an silver plated over brass frame engraved Henry ( #10,809 ) made in December of 1865 and it has a dog on one panel. Although I have not yet gone searching for a identified engraver for that rifle, I would like to identify the engraver. The dog seems to point towards his work.
Any help on this one is appreciated.
Bill
Bill,
Send me some pictures of your Henry and I will see if I can pick anything out.
The dog in the engraving could be reference to the “dog star” (Sirius). I identified an engraved Henry to the Ulrichs a few months ago.
Gustave Young used a supposed wolf on the hammers. I think it’s actually the same reference to Sirius. Check the dogs front teeth if they are showing. I have an Ulrich engraved 1866 musket with a supposed wolf on the panel that Conrad Ulrichs makers mark appears there. I do think that one serves a dual purpose with reference to the Lopez family as well as the dog star.
This is all fairly subtle stuff, but is hidden in plain sight. Look for what may only appear as a scratch or “fly out” in the engraving. These are often telling you to look here. Makers marks often found nearby. Sometimes on the edge of the cut. It is much easier to do from high resolution pictures than looking at the rifle itself.
I would send some pictures to Pauline Muerrle and ask if she can identify the engraver and if she can have her write a opinion letter for the gun. You will have to pay for that letter. She has some records from engravers but I would guess they will be the more modern era guns
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Onefish said
Bill,Send me some pictures of your Henry and I will see if I can pick anything out.
The dog in the engraving could be reference to the “dog star” (Sirius). I identified an engraved Henry to the Ulrichs a few months ago.
Gustave Young used a supposed wolf on the hammers. I think it’s actually the same reference to Sirius. Check the dogs front teeth if they are showing. I have an Ulrich engraved 1866 musket with a supposed wolf on the panel that Conrad Ulrichs makers mark appears there. I do think that one serves a dual purpose with reference to the Lopez family as well as the dog star.
This is all fairly subtle stuff, but is hidden in plain sight. Look for what may only appear as a scratch or “fly out” in the engraving. These are often telling you to look here. Makers marks often found nearby. Sometimes on the edge of the cut. It is much easier to do from high resolution pictures than looking at the rifle itself.
Onefish said
Off and on they did have a lot of time on their hands. I think they often did things just to further their craft or pass on knowledge. Later using those rifles as presentation pieces for fellow Masons.You are spot on about the Masonic rifles being built for certain people or individuals that knew what they were and meant. Some possibly being presented by lodges to members for certain achievements. Hence the lodge numbers etc.
The least they are is extraordinary works of esoteric art and some truly masterpieces of engraving.
A purist collector wants to put a number and document on a rifle to determine its value. Engraved rifles especially of known masters command top dollar. The more work the better. The factory rifles are done and paid for on a hourly/daily basis. This limits the amount of detail that can be done with some type of time constraints. Regardless, the artwork done adds value to the rifle. Basically put you are collecting or investing in documented art.
This said; How does a work of art by a certain master become worth less because they worked on it for years instead of days? Scratching away on it when work wasn’t available or using them as a teaching method for their successors. Many documented factory engraved rifles are a matter of speculation or elimination as to who did the work. The engravers makers marks are used to identify the engraver making the rifle a document in itself. That same method of identification applies to any rifle engraved by that particular person. If it looks like a Picasso and it’s signed by Picasso. Isn’t it a Picasso? Or rather an Ulrich, Nimschke or Young.
Here is a macro picture of hidden engraving Dave “oldfish” brought to my attention. Makes you wonder what your engraved gun had hidden and who did it for what reason ? Look for the wolf’s head and the number 382
Bill
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