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This is neat (& goes nicely with a Winchester 1886) because it is Smokeless and, because of this, it is labeled as .45 500, and not .45 70, as this would not have been loaded with 70 grains of black powder. Dates from ca 1898 to 1911, as Union Metallic Cartridge Company merged with Remington in 1911.
A recent acquisition…and fascinating.
These cartridges are listed in the 1916 Winchester catalog for use in the 1886 as well as other firearms. RDB
rogertherelic said
These cartridges are listed in the 1916 Winchester catalog for use in the 1886 as well as other firearms. RDB
Yes, these aren’t just for the 1886. Could be used in any .45 70 rifle.
These, specifically, would not be listed in the 1916 catalogue as Union Metallic Cartridge Company had merged with Remington in 1911.
I am not sure that the 500 gr. bullet was for an 1886? Some Military rifles did use it for sure.
Chuck said
I am not sure that the 500 gr. bullet was for an 1886? Some Military rifles did use it for sure.
Is stamped U S Property so it is military.
I misworded my original post. Thanks mrcvs. ‘Winchester’ loaded a 500 grain 45-70 cartridge and did list it for use in the 1886 and other rifles in the 1916 Catalog. Usually the 1886 bullets were flat nosed and the 500 grain was round nosed. I would assume the lead bullet was considered soft enough not to cause a detonation problem in the magazine under recoil. RDB
Anyone have a round from a box like this one they can photograph and post? This box has been sealed since before the Titanic went down, and so I’m not going to break the seal. That would prove or disprove if the bullet is flat nosed or not.
If you know anyone with an x-ray machine you could determine if round or flat nose.
mrcvs said
Is stamped U S Property so it is military.
I know it is stamped Military, but I did not know the 86’s shot the 500 gr. bullets. Here is a picture of a Winchester box and a round.
After more research I found that the 405 gr. and 500 gr. were loaded for the 1886 from the start. Only the 405 gr. held the full 70 gr’s. of powder. The one picture I did find shows the round nose bullet for the 500 gr..
April 26, 2015
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Were these intended for use in nickel-steel rifles only or was the pressure low enough for older black powder 1886s?
Bruce Koligian said
Were these intended for use in nickel-steel rifles only or was the pressure low enough for older black powder 1886s?
All the black powder loads can be shot in any 1886. If a smokeless load I can’t really answer that question. The ones for sale should never be opened. These are for display. It would be a sad day if someone broke the seal.
Chuck said
These are for display. It would be a sad day if someone broke the seal.
These have been sealed, if not longer than everyone has been alive on this planet, then nearly so. I’m not going to be the one to break the seal. I sure hope that future “caretakers” of this fine, but by no means incredibly valuable or rare, box, feel the same way.
mrcvs said
These have been sealed, if not longer than everyone has been alive on this planet, then nearly so. I’m not going to be the one to break the seal. I sure hope that future “caretakers” of this fine, but by no means incredibly valuable or rare, box, feel the same way.
mrcvs, I totally agree with you and my comment was for anyone looking to buy and shoot these, not you.
I wonder how well they would shoot? The M1886 would shoot all bullet weights from 300 to 500 grains equally well? I would think the rate of twist would be a factor?
I suppose they would cycle through the action ok given the ’86 action handled longer cartridges (e.g. the .45/90). However, I’d want to test that speculation before I went on a big bear hunt with the rifle/cartridge combination under discussion.
I have cast some 500 grain bullets and loaded them up to shoot in my original 1886, as well as in my Browning 1886 SRC, and an original Springfield 1888. The overall length with the 500 grain bullet is the same as the O.L. of the 45-90. No problem feeding in any of these 1886’s, original or modern. Accuracy was alright, around 3″ at 100 yards for a 5-shot group, but I could see that some holes were slightly oval, an indication that some bullets were wobbling slightly. I only use the 500 grain bullets for short range Moose hunting in the bush where shots are seldom over 50 yards.
Does anyone know what year the round nose 45-70 government cartridges were first produced by UMC?
James
jwm94 said
Does anyone know what year the round nose 45-70 government cartridges were first produced by UMC?James
James
They would have made them round nose from day one of production in 1873, even when it was a rim-fire cartridge. The Springfield model 1873 was not a magazine rifle, thus you didn’t have to worry with detention of the primers of stacked cartridges in the magazine tube like in the Winchester 86.
Here is a nice article discussing the rim-fire version & other variations of the 45 Govt. cartridge.
https://www.oldammo.com/november04.htm
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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