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400 Legend The new hammer of Thor?
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Bo Rich
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April 6, 2024 - 3:05 pm
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I feel like Winchester’s newer cartridges the .350, and .400 Legend are simply modern versions of the older .351 SL, and it’s bigger brother the .401 SL.  I kinda wish that Winchester would of reintroduced the older self loading cartridges.  It is interesting in that these older cartridges introduced in 1907, and 1910 have a demand in 2024 even if Is in a slightly different package.  I know that new things sell, and that is what they are in business for.  However, I feel that the older cartridges in modern guns may sell better then some would think.  

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April 6, 2024 - 4:45 pm
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I have a friend that deer hunts with a 350 Legend. Honestly I wasn’t too impressed by it, not good for any shooting distance. Deer seem to go too far, and we have to track them all over. Then again my friend isn’t always the best shot either. But shooting something within 100 yards, I expect it not to cause such problems.

I much prefer shooting them with my 30-06, but will use a 30-30 or 30-40 Krag all day long as well. The older I get the more I prefer deer dropping in their tracks. But I also use my 300 WSM for Whitetail, which a lot say is over kill, but I have yet to have a deer shot with it that if it didn’t drop in its tracks went 20 yards. And have found it really didn’t mess up the meat any more than a 30-06.

There is something about a good bottlenecked cartridge I enjoy. I even had fun this year taking several feral hogs with a 22 Hornet. Nothing better than shooting them right behind the ear.

Sincerely,

Maverick 

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April 6, 2024 - 10:31 pm
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I believe the recent article on these two cartridges also stated the 350 was light for deer. I like my 401 but can’t afford to keep cracking the forend, which the vintage rifles are know for. I agree, I would have like to see the 401 back.

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April 6, 2024 - 11:12 pm
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Maverick said
I have a friend that deer hunts with a 350 Legend. Honestly I wasn’t too impressed by it, not good for any shooting distance. Deer seem to go too far, and we have to track them all over. Then again my friend isn’t always the best shot either. But shooting something within 100 yards, I expect it not to cause such problems.

I much prefer shooting them with my 30-06, but will use a 30-30 or 30-40 Krag all day long as well. The older I get the more I prefer deer dropping in their tracks. But I also use my 300 WSM for Whitetail, which a lot say is over kill, but I have yet to have a deer shot with it that if it didn’t drop in its tracks went 20 yards. And have found it really didn’t mess up the meat any more than a 30-06.

There is something about a good bottlenecked cartridge I enjoy. I even had fun this year taking several feral hogs with a 22 Hornet. Nothing better than shooting them right behind the ear.

Sincerely,

Maverick 

  

Maverick – I see the desirability of all of the bottlenecked cartridge you described.  All fine cartridges.  I suppose the problem is that they are not straight-walled and hence, not legal in the areas that these new cartridges have been designed for.  For most of my years hunting, we had rifle cartridges and then we had “slug only” zones.  This straight-wall rule change adds a good option I suppose.  But why not just go with the .45-70, .444 or .38-55?  Oh, right, this is for people who don’t want to use a lever action rifle Confused

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April 7, 2024 - 2:44 am
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As a reloader and casual student of old cartridges I was somewhat underwhelmed by the “Legend”. I feel that the reintroduction of a few fine old cartridges would have filled that niche nicely but it wouldn’t have been as sexy as a “new” cartridge. As much as I like “Thumper” cartridges I’m well aware that the modern bottleneck cartridges are quicker and more sure killers when used properly. I wonder how many deer are lost by hunters in the straight wall states who are not good trackers.

 

Mike

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April 7, 2024 - 1:59 pm
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TXGunNut said
As a reloader and casual student of old cartridges I was somewhat underwhelmed by the “Legend”. I feel that the reintroduction of a few fine old cartridges would have filled that niche nicely but it wouldn’t have been as sexy as a “new” cartridge. As much as I like “Thumper” cartridges I’m well aware that the modern bottleneck cartridges are quicker and more sure killers when used properly. I wonder how many deer are lost by hunters in the straight wall states who are not good trackers.

 

Mike

  

I just realized that my list of obvious straight-wall cartridge left out the .375 big bore.  There’s a lot of .375 owners (Winchester, Marlin, Ruger No. 3) who would love to be able buy a box of ammunition for their rifles.  Just the opportunity to buy a box of brass might bring tears to the eyes of some.  Given the .375 big bore didn’t even come out until 1978, the idea of reintroducing something so recent seems ridiculous.  But, money drives everything and I suppose the slow ammo sales caught the attention of the bean counters.

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April 7, 2024 - 2:44 pm
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How about a Henry Ranch rifle in .351 WSL, and .401 WSL.  Then maybe they would again make ammo for these again.  They would be a hoot to hunt deer with in the straight wall States!  

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April 7, 2024 - 2:59 pm
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Bo Rich said
How about a Henry Ranch rifle in .351 WSL, and .401 WSL.  Then maybe they would again make ammo for these again.  They would be a hoot to hunt deer with in the straight wall States!  

  

Even though I have a soft spot for vintage cartridges, the .351 was a fairly underwhelming deer cartridge.  I suppose if the deer were small enough….

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April 7, 2024 - 4:03 pm
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Yes, Steve, I have a fair bit of experience with the .375 Winchester even though it is not a collectible rifle or cartridge in the eyes of some folks around here. I think the possibility of someone shooting a steady diet of factory 375’s in a marginal 38-55 scares the ammo makers. I’m very careful to load correct headstamp brass for these cartridges, I treat them as totally different cartridges. I bought my Big Bore 94 (pre Angle-Eject) new and it’s still a 98% gun other than the sling swivel stud in the butt stock. I suspect my little .375 brass and ammo stash is worth more than I paid for the rifle. Lyman even makes their great 375449 mould in the correct diameter for this rifle. I have a receiver sight and a front sling swivel mount for the mag tube so it would be a viable choice for a hunting rifle in those restrictive states but quite frankly it’s too pretty to take hunting. 

 

Mike

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April 7, 2024 - 5:56 pm
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Steve004, I like your comment!  Sometimes The small deers are the better ones to shoot.  They taste good.  Interestingly in Leonard Speckin’s book on the 1907- .351 Self Loading book  He has a chapter on taking deer with the .351SL.  I believe he used the 200 grain Hawk bullet.

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April 7, 2024 - 7:33 pm
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steve004 said Maverick – I see the desirability of all of the bottlenecked cartridge you described.  All fine cartridges.  I suppose the problem is that they are not straight-walled and hence, not legal in the areas that these new cartridges have been designed for.  For most of my years hunting, we had rifle cartridges and then we had “slug only” zones.  This straight-wall rule change adds a good option I suppose.  But why not just go with the .45-70, .444 or .38-55?  Oh, right, this is for people who don’t want to use a lever action rifle Confused

In Louisiana we have a “Primitive Firearms Season” which basically took place of the muzzleloader season. Originally it was for single shot rifles of pre-1900 design and with only for certain calibers, oddly enough they allowed rimfire ammunition over I think 35 caliber. But who the hell can get a hold of and regularly shoot any rimfire over .22? And without spending a ton of money.

I already had a nice reproduction Browning single shot in 45 Gov. so was ready to go from the start. I actually got to where I enjoy hearing the sound of a 405 grain bullet hitting its target. When they first came out with the law a lot of these unfamiliar modern bolt action guys in our hunting club didn’t have a clue about shooting 45 Gov. Often thinking it was such a old cartridge and they actually had concerns with the lethalness of the cartridge. If they were good enough for shooting buffalo, they’ll do fine for whitetail deer. Now you can hardly find anyone shooting a muzzleloader. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 7, 2024 - 8:30 pm
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Maverick said Now you can hardly find anyone shooting a muzzleloader.

Odds are, they weren’t shooting REAL MLs before this law was enacted.  Based on what you’re saying, the unintended consequence of this law has been to expose the hypocritical pretense & nonsense that modern straight-line so-called MLs were what the original advocates of ML-only seasons were envisioning when the first ML regs were drawn up.  Single state I know of where real MLs must be used during the ML season is Pa; only concern of most others is selling that extra tag or permit. 

Big diff between buffs & whitetails in reaction to a bullet wound:  buffs generally just stand still until they bleed to death, which allowed buff hunters to shoot many withing a few yds of each other before the herd became alarmed. 

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April 7, 2024 - 10:23 pm
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No I haven’t seen it done, but have always been told that you can shoot a buffalo through the heart and it will stand there and look at you. But that if you shoot it in the hump it would fall over dead every time. That this was true of the bow and arrow days with the Native Americans would shoot there and continued to do so when transitioning to firearms. But honestly don’t claim to know one way or the other. There haven’t been any Buffalo in Louisiana since not long after Lewis & Clark. A lot of old timers would talk of “Woodlands Buffalo” still roaming around into the late 1800s, but fences along with starvation pretty well put an end to them. Of course during the great depression starvation just about caused the white tail deer population to be extinct down here as well.

Yeah back in the 90s alot of guys used in-line muzzleloaders with all sorts of plastic covered Sabots and preformed powder packs. They always gave us strange looks when we carried our percussion cap, cloth patched 50 caliber round balls and powder dispensers. Those looks usually faded when we were the first ones to start dragging deer to the skinning rack. And they were left chasing crippled deer through the woods.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 7, 2024 - 11:59 pm
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Maverick said
They always gave us strange looks when we carried our percussion cap, cloth patched 50 caliber round balls and powder dispensers.

THAT is a ML!  Hunting with a true ML is way more than merely the chance to kill another deer outside the regular season.

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April 8, 2024 - 3:05 am
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Yes, Brady, a patched round ball (50 or 54) will put meat in the freezer. A few years ago I watched and tried to help a hunter get ready for a drawn BP bear hunt. I forget where the hunt was, we were at the NRA’s Whittington Center. Hunt was next day, he was hunting with an in-line. He was torn between BP substitutes and confused about cleaning regimens. I tried to help but he was frustrated and pressed for time. Special guns take a special effort, not a last-minute crash course. Straight wall cartridges and guns put meat on the table and killed millions of bison for decades but they should never be an afterthought. Personally I think cartridge restrictions are meant to discourage lawful hunting and game management but I’m probably mistaken.

 

 

Mike

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April 8, 2024 - 3:35 am
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TXGunNut said
Personally I think cartridge restrictions are meant to discourage lawful hunting and game management but I’m probably mistaken.

Mike

I pretty much whole heartedly agree with you there on that one.

But we live in the southern U.S. All the guys up north (not that far up north of Arkansas) and out west guys look at me like I’m nuts when you tell them I can kill 6 deer a season (3 does, 3 bucks) (1buck&1doe a day) using a bow (crossbow, recurve or traditional), muzzle loader or single shot rifle, regular rifle (practically any make or model except at or below a 22 R.F.) during our 122 day hunting season in Louisiana. Of which in my area the regular rifle is 78 days long, and of that 78 days for 39 days you can run deer with dogs.

I tell them all the time I would Riot if all I had was a 2 week rifle season and/or that I could only use a shotgun. But there are guys out there that think you should only be able to use a traditional bow and that is it. So go figure. They’re usually horn hunters though. 

But I as well maybe mistaken by all the aforementioned. Wink 

Sincerely,

Maverick 

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April 8, 2024 - 4:05 am
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TXGunNut said
 Personally I think cartridge restrictions are meant to discourage lawful hunting and game management but I’m probably mistaken. 

Though there are many who do want to discourage hunting, or ban it altogether, these regs are usually promulgated by game depts funded by hunting licenses, so it doesn’t make sense that “discouragement” is their deliberate intention.  Do they know what they’re doing?  That’s another question.  The aim of some of these regs is to control the worst excesses of the “typical American hunter,” who’s incompetent at best, & a reckless game-hog at worst.  On a recent episode of “Yellowstone Warden” on History Ch, a truckload of idiots shot & wounded 3 elk from the road, & kept on going.  When apprehended the shooter turned out to be a teenage boy, but so what?  Everyone in the truck should have been thrown to the ground, pistol-whipped, handcuffed & arrested, but apparently they were let off with a warning; WHAT ? 

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April 8, 2024 - 5:30 pm
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Maverick said

TXGunNut said

Personally I think cartridge restrictions are meant to discourage lawful hunting and game management but I’m probably mistaken.

Mike

I pretty much whole heartedly agree with you there on that one.

But we live in the southern U.S. All the guys up north (not that far up north of Arkansas) and out west guys look at me like I’m nuts when you tell them I can kill 6 deer a season (3 does, 3 bucks) (1buck&1doe a day) using a bow (crossbow, recurve or traditional), muzzle loader or single shot rifle, regular rifle (practically any make or model except at or below a 22 R.F.) during our 122 day hunting season in Louisiana. Of which in my area the regular rifle is 78 days long, and of that 78 days for 39 days you can run deer with dogs.

I tell them all the time I would Riot if all I had was a 2 week rifle season and/or that I could only use a shotgun. But there are guys out there that think you should only be able to use a traditional bow and that is it. So go figure. They’re usually horn hunters though. 

But I as well maybe mistaken by all the aforementioned. Wink 

Sincerely,

Maverick 

  

For all my hunting years, regular firearms season has been 9 days.  One deer.  There were a few years where a bonus doe tag was available.  Sometimes, just through a drawing process.

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April 8, 2024 - 6:08 pm
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In Iowa where I was born and did most of my hunting if you took advantage of all the legal arms you could hunt deer from Oct 1 to Jan 21.  Only 2 weeks with a shotgun or straight wall cartridge rifle.   Residents could buy doe tags by the handful. 

https://www.iowadnr.gov/Portals/idnr/uploads/Hunting/huntingregs_card.pdf

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April 8, 2024 - 9:59 pm
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steve004 said For all my hunting years, regular firearms season has been 9 days.  One deer.  There were a few years where a bonus doe tag was available.  Sometimes, just through a drawing process.

  Yeah, that is a crying shame in my book. I couldn’t fathom eating my entire season’s bag limit at one cook out.

Of course the way hunting seasons are going, It’ll be a rich man’s sport. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

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