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April 15, 2005
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M64lvr said
With continuous bad weather and still waiting on bullets for reloading, ive been re-reading. And was just reading Wayn Van Zwoll’s article of Townsend Whelen from 2023 Sporting Classics Magazine.
He said that on a later Pack Trip into BC, 1906 I believe, one rifle he took was a Winchester 1885 in 30-40 Krag.
Id kept a link on my phone of an old OL Article titled “Whelen’s 10 Favorite Big Game Cartridges”. For Elk he said nothing was better than the 30-40 Krag, insisting on the 220gr bullet, that nothing he’d seen penetrating straighter & deeper! Mentioned somewhere in this article? the 180gr 30-40 being also very good, all around effectiveness! But if only one rifle & cartridge he had to settle for, in both articles, one by WVZ, even late in his life, he still would grab his Springfield 06! I know he loved the 180gr in it i think most, by memory.
I just so happen to agree with Townsend Whelen 110% in regard to the 30-40 Krag and the 220-gr bullets. It will cleanly and efficiently take down big tough game animals with ease. I load mine (for my Single Shot high-wall rifles) with 39.0 grains of IMR 4064… it is slightly hotter than the old original factory load, but it shoots lights out to my capabilities.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 6, 2011
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If the 30 40 Krag is great with 220 grain bullets, wouldn’t the 30 06 shooting 220 grain bullets several hundred fps be even better?
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
If the 30 40 Krag is great with 220 grain bullets, wouldn’t the 30 06 shooting 220 grain bullets several hundred fps be even better?
Not necessarily. While increased velocity improves down range performance, it does not necessarily improve the near range terminal performance. With the higher velocity, the odds of a shooting the bullet completely through the animal are greatly increased, thereby muting the “knock-down” properties of the round.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 6, 2011
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Actually, shooting the same bullet at 300 fps higher velocity increases the expansion and effectiveness of the bullet, not the penetration. At all ranges.
November 19, 2006
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wolfbait said
Actually, shooting the same bullet at 300 fps higher velocity increases the expansion and effectiveness of the bullet, not the penetration. At all ranges.
The Winchester testing proved this not to be true. The 30/40 with a 220 grain bullet at 1960 fps penetrated 58 pine boards. The .30 U.S. Govt. 06 with a 220 grain bullet at 2250 fps penetrated 72 boards. It penetrated more boards than any other cartridge on their list.
November 7, 2015
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wolfbait said
If the 30 40 Krag is great with 220 grain bullets, wouldn’t the 30 06 shooting 220 grain bullets several hundred fps be even better?
That’s what makes the old 30US interesting to me. I haven’t dabbled with the round as much as Bert has but the rifles I’ve had in this chambering seem to prefer bullets heavier than we commonly see in the later 30-06. The 30US with long, heavy bullets and the 30 Guvmint 06 with lighter expanding bullets deliver killing power in different ways so they perform best with very different bullets. I don’t hunt with a 30US but on paper it seems to like the longer bullets. I certainly like the old school profile of the traditional bullets for this old cartridge.
Mike
December 30, 2011
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Here are some test results for you to ponder, if interested:
March 6, 2011
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steve004 said
wolfbait said
Actually, shooting the same bullet at 300 fps higher velocity increases the expansion and effectiveness of the bullet, not the penetration. At all ranges.
The Winchester testing proved this not to be true. The 30/40 with a 220 grain bullet at 1960 fps penetrated 58 pine boards. The .30 U.S. Govt. 06 with a 220 grain bullet at 2250 fps penetrated 72 boards. It penetrated more boards than any other cartridge on their list.
You are mistakenly comparing FP bullets, not soft points. With soft point bullets the 06 penetrated just one more board, and undoubtedly expanded considerably more because of the increased velocity. On large game, a little more penetration and more expansion could only benefit the 30-06.
March 6, 2011
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TXGunNut said
wolfbait said
If the 30 40 Krag is great with 220 grain bullets, wouldn’t the 30 06 shooting 220 grain bullets several hundred fps be even better?
That’s what makes the old 30US interesting to me. I haven’t dabbled with the round as much as Bert has but the rifles I’ve had in this chambering seem to prefer bullets heavier than we commonly see in the later 30-06. The 30US with long, heavy bullets and the 30 Guvmint 06 with lighter expanding bullets deliver killing power in different ways so they perform best with very different bullets. I don’t hunt with a 30US but on paper it seems to like the longer bullets. I certainly like the old school profile of the traditional bullets for this old cartridge.
Mike
The 2 cartridges shoot the exact same projectiles. The 06 shoots that projectile 15% faster, providing a little more penetration and more expansion because of the increased velocity. At all ranges. The 30-40 is a good cartridge, but the 30-06 is a more powerful, effective cartridge for use on big game.
May 22, 2024
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Interesting Brad, thanks! ? Kynoch, thats a Brand of Ammunition? 30 Win im sure 30 wcf? And the 7mm probably 7×57?
I believe the 30-40 Krag & 303 Brit with similar bullets would be very comparable, anyone with an opinion?
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
Actually, shooting the same bullet at 300 fps higher velocity increases the expansion and effectiveness of the bullet, not the penetration. At all ranges.
Again, that is not true in all cases… it really depends on the specific bullet type.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
May 22, 2024
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I understand those stressing the merits of 30-40 Krag, performance on game with the 220gr. Yes bullet similarities compared, that perfect velocity of the Krag with that bullet, as especially applied to Elk, the bullet expansion is just right for tissue damage with exit or no exit! The 220 at 06 velocity, again the right bullet, makes me think I want this for brown bear!
Have acquaintances way south, not around here. They just have had outstanding recovery on deer without any real track, with the 303 Brit with heavy bullets! Seems the 30-40 with correct 220gr is just tailor made for the thicker elk!
March 6, 2011
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Bert H. said
wolfbait said
Actually, shooting the same bullet at 300 fps higher velocity increases the expansion and effectiveness of the bullet, not the penetration. At all ranges.
Again, that is not true in all cases… it really depends on the specific bullet type.
Bert
The Remington and Winchester 220 grain RN SP ammo I have is loaded with the same bullet for both calibers. For reloading, the exact same bullets are available for both calibers. No experienced hunter will try to tell you the 30-40, or .303 British, are the equal of the 30-06.
April 15, 2005
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I have a fair amount of actual field use with the 30-40 Krag cartridge. I carried my first 30-40 Krag rifle deer hunting on the NW Oregon coast in the early Fall of 1970. It was loaded with 150-gr Sierra SP bullet using 43.0 grains of IMR 4064. I still use that same load today. Later in that same year (when Elk season opened) my dad handed me (6) fresh cartridges for that old Springfield Krag rifle that were loaded with a 220-gr SP bullet loaded with 39.0 grains of IMR 4064. I carried that rifle and those loads for three Deer & Elk hunting seasons, killed three nice Black tail bucks, and one Bull elk (one shot through the bread-basket and it dropped dead in its tracks). In the Summer of 1974, I earned enough money to buy a Winchester Model 54 in 30-06 and that became my new (old) hunting rifle. To this day, I would not hesitate to grab that old sporterized Springfield Krag rifle and hunt deer and elk with it. The only advantage that the 30-06 has over the 30-40 is that it is flatter shooting, which extends the point zero range that it can be shot to.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
Bert H. said
wolfbait said
Actually, shooting the same bullet at 300 fps higher velocity increases the expansion and effectiveness of the bullet, not the penetration. At all ranges.
Again, that is not true in all cases… it really depends on the specific bullet type.
Bert
The Remington and Winchester 220 grain RN SP ammo I have is loaded with the same bullet for both calibers. For reloading, the exact same bullets are available for both calibers. No experienced hunter will try to tell you the 30-40, or .303 British, are the equal of the 30-06.
It is obvious that you are not an “experienced” hunter. The 30-40 cartridge does not have to be the “equal” to a 30-06 to be just as effective in cleanly putting down a game animal.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 6, 2011
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The Remington and Winchester 220 grain RN SP ammo I have is loaded with the same bullet for both calibers. For reloading, the exact same bullets are available for both calibers. No experienced hunter will try to tell you the 30-40, or .303 British, are the equal of the 30-06.
It is obvious that you are not an “experienced” hunter. The 30-40 cartridge does not have to be the “equal” to a 30-06 to be just as effective in cleanly putting down a game animal.
Bert
Many cartridges are effective in hunting big game. Animals such as Elk vary in size, distance shot, and angle shot at. A projectile penetrating a little more deeply and expanding more because of velocity can only benefit the results. The 30-40 is a good cartridge, but anyone who does not accept that the 30-06 is a more effective big game cartridge is only fooling themself.
November 7, 2015
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Wolfbait said:
The 2 cartridges shoot the exact same projectiles. The 06 shoots that projectile 15% faster, providing a little more penetration and more expansion because of the increased velocity. At all ranges. The 30-40 is a good cartridge, but the 30-06 is a more powerful, effective cartridge for use on big game.
No, they are actually two very different cartridges designed around very different bullets. Yes, the 30US evolved to the 30Govt03 and then to the 30Gov06 but they are different cartridges and to get the most out of either of them I will treat them as distinctly different cartridges. Yes, I know I can load 150-180gr Spitzer or even BT bullets in my 30US rifles and bullets up to at least 200grs in my 30Guvmint06 but my point is they perform best with the bullets they were designed for. In theory your points are valid, at the range or in the field the story changes.
Mike
May 23, 2009
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I think your simply getting into semantics. Penetration into wood pine boards VS the effectiveness of killing a big game animals has a lot variables. The penetration of boards is nice simple controllable variable, easily determined, measurable and as well as being a good advertisement. Way too many variables when it comes to killing any said game with a said cartridge. The skill of the shooter, the bullet placement, the distance, the weather, if I forgot to eat breakfast and am shaking from low sugar. Those sorts of variables you can’t easily print on paper and also have way too many opinions to go with them.
I know plenty of old guys that love and still whitetail hunt with the 30-40 Krag or the 30-30 for that matter. I’ve used both without any major issues. I personally enjoy a good 30-06, but actually prefer the 300WSM.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
March 6, 2011
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TXGunNut said
“my point is they perform best with the bullets they were designed for”
The 06 was loaded with 220 grain bullets from it’s inception, as shown in the charts. The 220 grain 06 loading was always recommended in the past for large or dangerous game.
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
The 06 was loaded with 220 grain bullets from it’s inception, as shown in the charts.
Only because the Military was still working out the kinks for the 150-grain bullet load. If you actually knew something about the history of the 30-06 cartridge development, and the specific reason why the U.S. Army made the change from the 30-03 Gov’t cartridge to the 30-06 Gov’t cartridge, you would know that it was not intended to shoot a 220-grain bullet. The 150-gr bullet & load was quickly worked out and became the standard for the U.S. Army.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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