Log In
May 22, 2024
Offline
Ive read several times of Winchester doing these test for advertising their early Levergun Cartridges, at least im sure in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, using i think always, 7/8″ Pine Boards.
For instance i just read advertisement of their 1886 in 33wcf, 200gr Softpoint Bullet having shot thru 12, 7/8″ Pineboards.
Wouldn’t using today’s common low grade lumber, which im sure is Pine, of 2×4 & 2×6’s, which i think average aprox 1.75″, duplicate very closely, 6 boards being aprox very close to 12 of the boards they used?? Just an honest guesstimate?
Has anyone tried this, to duplicate equally their test? And especially test with 30-30? Does anyone know the results of how many boards they advertised the 30wcf to shoot thru?
Im considering trying it with several 30-30 loads & bullets to get a close to original result?
Was their boards stacked back to back together?
March 6, 2011
Offline
All of the tests I have seen had the boards separated about an inch. Shooting a lesser number of thicker boards would not be an equivalent test to shooting a greater number of boards separated.
May 23, 2009
Offline
In my opinion no it would not, as lumber today is not what is was in the 1800s or even just 100 years ago.
I don’t know if they were spaced apart or not.
There is a interior photo of the Winchester Museum when it was in New Haven, CT of the entry lobby with the secretary at her desk. On top of a display cabinet is one of these advertising display penetration boards. From the photo they don’t appear to be spaced and look to be held together with four rods, one in each corner and threaded through them.
Its the only one that I recall seeing that I know for a fact is a legit one.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
February 17, 2022
Offline
Me think that the use of different thickness boards with an equal spacing would change the dynamics of the penetration test. As I like to to say” if it ain’t the same it’s different”. My better half, who is a scientist, no really she is, taught me that,
May 23, 2009
Offline
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
March 20, 2010
Online
I think its in the 1905 Winchester Catalog where it shows a chart of the ballistics for the various calibers. It has the “Penetration of Bullets in 7/8 inch Pine Boards at 15 Feet from Muzzle” stated, with chart showing the board counts for Lead, Soft Point, and full metal patched bullets.
Maverick,
In the photo you posted, the vertical lines within the block appear to be individual boards that are capped on the lateral sides? Reason I ask is there appears to be 14 seams (15 boards). (Edit-should have read your entire post stating same). BTW, The 50-110 W.H.V. has penetration listed as 14 boards.
Chris
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
May 23, 2009
Offline
I don’t own said piece, but yeah it looks like 15 boards to me with the 15th starting to be penetrated.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
November 7, 2015
Offline
I’m wondering if the photos showing separation were to help illustrate the number of boards penetrated by the bullets being tested. Having the boards secured together as shown in Maverick’s post may have also prevented boards from breaking, a likely consequence with today’s lumber but maybe not quite as likely a century ago.
Mike
May 22, 2024
Offline
I count 15 boards total the bullet stopped at #15, and obviously it was shot with the boards stacked together. This way would make IMO a much tougher test as opposed to spacing the boards, giving relief and room for the wood to fracture and give! Impressively tough test! And the lumber of today would not be of the quality of back then, most likely old growth trees. Thanks for the photos!
April 15, 2005
Offline
The tables showing Velocity, Penetrations and Trajectory were published in all of Winchesters’ catalogs for at least a 20-year period (mid 1890s through 1916).
The attached pictures are a scanned copy of the April 1900 Catalog No. 65.
This is the October 1905 Catalog No. 72 (with the new 32 WS, 33 WCF, 35 WCF and 405 WCF cartridges added).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
May 22, 2024
Offline
Thanks for those Bert, I’ll keep them!
March 6, 2011
Offline
I do not know how they did it long ago, but in the past 75 years this is how I have seen wood penetration boxes used to test penetration in the gun magazines where penetration tests were done. After shooting, the individual boards were taken out to show penetration depth and bullet expansion. That is an easier way to compare rounds tested. You just have to remove and replace individual boards rather than sawing open a clump of boards after each shot.
May 22, 2024
Offline
Winchester’s method i can see just to show cartridges power, but boards separated, or other materials, so as to check different bullet performance is certainly a more beneficial test!
November 19, 2006
Offline
I remember reading this chart as a teenager I think it was printed in the first Cartridges of the World I purchased. I remember the .30/40 was just about at the top of the list at 58 boards. I was very impressed.
April 15, 2005
Offline
steve004 said
I remember reading this chart as a teenager I think it was printed in the first Cartridges of the World I purchased. I remember the .30/40 was just about at the top of the list at 58 boards. I was very impressed.
The old 30-40 with a 220-grain bullet is outright deadly to anything you might shoot with it… it will drop a Bull Elk in its tracks!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
Bert H. said
steve004 said
I remember reading this chart as a teenager I think it was printed in the first Cartridges of the World I purchased. I remember the .30/40 was just about at the top of the list at 58 boards. I was very impressed.
The old 30-40 with a 220-grain bullet is outright deadly to anything you might shoot with it… it will drop a Bull Elk in its tracks!
Bert
The bullets the 30US liked best are considered heavy for the caliber today, that’s what always intrigued me about this cartridge…still does! The Europeans stayed with the long, heavy bullets much longer than the US did. Long, heavy bullets certainly penetrate! Awhile back it came full circle when long range shooters “discovered” the 6mm cartridges.
Mike
May 23, 2009
Offline
I think the winner of the day being the 30 Gov’t 1903 on the chart Bert posted. I know its the precursor but nothing like a good old 30-06 in my book.
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
April 15, 2005
Offline
Maverick said
I think the winner of the day being the 30 Gov’t 1903 on the chart Bert posted. I know its the precursor but nothing like a good old 30-06 in my book.
That 220-gr .30 caliber bullet has a very high BC which is one of the reasons the U.S. military chose it. I loaded up (200) of my 30-40 Krag cartridges with that bullet (to shoot in my Single Shot high-wall rifles). I shoot a 150-gr Sierra SPBTs in my old Model 1894 Springfield Krag rifle (a great Black Tail deer cartridge).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
May 22, 2024
Offline
With continuous bad weather and still waiting on bullets for reloading, ive been re-reading. And was just reading Wayn Van Zwoll’s article of Townsend Whelen from 2023 Sporting Classics Magazine.
He said that on a later Pack Trip into BC, 1906 I believe, one rifle he took was a Winchester 1885 in 30-40 Krag.
Id kept a link on my phone of an old OL Article titled “Whelen’s 10 Favorite Big Game Cartridges”. For Elk he said nothing was better than the 30-40 Krag, insisting on the 220gr bullet, that nothing he’d seen penetrating straighter & deeper! Mentioned somewhere in this article? the 180gr 30-40 being also very good, all around effectiveness! But if only one rifle & cartridge he had to settle for, in both articles, one by WVZ, even late in his life, he still would grab his Springfield 06! I know he loved the 180gr in it i think most, by memory.
March 31, 2009
Offline
Bert H. said
Maverick said
I think the winner of the day being the 30 Gov’t 1903 on the chart Bert posted. I know its the precursor but nothing like a good old 30-06 in my book.
That 220-gr .30 caliber bullet has a very high BC which is one of the reasons the U.S. military chose it. I loaded up (200) of my 30-40 Krag cartridges with that bullet (to shoot in my Single Shot high-wall rifles). I shoot a 150-gr Sierra SPBTs in my old Model 1894 Springfield Krag rifle (a great Black Tail deer cartridge).
Bert
Some of the first 30-40’s used a 180 gr. bullet. Not for the Military though.
1 Guest(s)
