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Widows disposing of collections
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November 19, 2021 - 8:51 pm
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This is not a new topic.  Today, the topic came up as a tangent on the .40-65 loading thread.  I started to make a response to Chuck on that thread but thought this is more of a general discussion item.  It has been on my mind as last year, a fellow collector passed away.  This prompted me to write my response below – which consists mainly of random thoughts.

Chuck said
My wife knows to call a local auction house.  They will come to our house and inventory our collection and haul it off.  The list will show the estimated value of each item.  There are no additional charges for doing this.  She knows she can negotiate the sellers premium and to not sign a contract with extra charges attached.  Additional charges should already be covered in the sellers premium.  Don’t deal with houses that have a long list of extra fees.  

Chuck – I seem to recall you had good documentation for what you have.  We all have heard tales of widows being fleeced by unscrupulous dealers and even, “friends” of the deceased swooping in.  Auctions are a good way to go and there are internet consignment dealers (that I actually trust) who will perform the same function you describe. 

Some collectors think it is important to keep an active valuation on each item in their collection.  That would be very valuable when, “friends” come by to see if they can, “help out” with the collection.  However, other than helping an auction estimate range, that valuation has no bearing when it comes to an an auction.  What I do think would be helpful is to have an auction-like description written up for each piece.  I had a fellow collector acquaintance pass away in recent times and an auction house (a major one we all know) came in.  The auction house wrote up the descriptions and they did a crap job on a lot of pieces (these were not Winchesters).  The worst example is they described several rifles as, “refinished” when they had not been.  The other thing is they came in and cherry-picked from his collection and she was left (and still is) with many lower grade pieces.  This collector did not have any instructions, documentation, etc. Many auction houses will accept a well written description.  I suggest having one for each piece – the auction house could at least use it as a reference.  The description can include rarity statistics, etc., etc.

 Another factor that can be significant is grief.  Many widows want to be as minimally involved as possible.  This can include not even wanting to set foot in that room that their husband spent so much time in.  Here’s an interesting example of a widow selling her husband’s collection. 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/909696986

If you read her description of this Winchester carbine, she describes how it took her four years to get to the point she could do it.  She is clearly a brave and confident/competent woman to do what she has done.  Imbedded in her description are some details of her early experience doing this – some of it sounds like it wasn’t easy (not all gunbroker buyers are great people).  I also read into her comments that her husband did not leave behind descriptions.  At most, he left behind the, “titles” of most of his guns.

If you have something that involves additions to the primary piece, give careful thought to how they will be kept together or how whoever is dealing with your collection will be easily alerted.  Let me give real life example:  a single-shot rifle with fancy cased sights (kept separate from the rifle).  The rifle made it to the auction, the cased sight set did not.  I believe the passing of a collector is why I’ve often seen rifles for sale that are missing their cased sights.  The same applies to the rifles I’ve seen that once had a claw mounted scope – and now there’s no scope or mounts with the rifle (I even have one – sure wish I could have the scope and mounts that went with the rifle).  Another example – two and three barrel sets – rifles or shotguns. I recall a member of this site has a fancy M1873 rifle – in .22 LR if I recall.  When he obtained a museum letter for the rifle he was astonished to see that it had been shipped with two extra, complete front ends.  It sure would be nice if those had been kept with the rifle.  One can’t help but conclude the owner of that rifle was not around when that rifle left his home.  Also important are factory letters, provenance and other documentation.  How can you plan that will be kept with the firearm?  

Here’s an example of poor planning on my part.  As most of us know, lever actions pack into safes well.  Bolt rifles, not as well.  Hence, you can pack more lever rifles than bolt rifles in a safe.  Hence, if some have to be left out, it’s likely to be bolt rifles.  I had this great idea, if the bolts were removed from the rifle and at least they were kept in the safe, that would decrease the risk of theft.  So, for a while I did this.  I had a tag on the bolt and the same tag on the corresponding rifle.  A friend expressed concern over this.  As I’ve always known he was someone smarter than me, I carefully listened to his perspective.  The first thing he said was, “tags can fall off.”  True enough.  But overall, he had great concern that if something happened to me, there were lots of scenarios where those bolts wouldn’t find their way back into those rifles.  Or if the right bolts would find their way into the right rifles.  He also brought up a good point – “the majority of your bolt rifles are Ross – even among very experienced gun guys – how many know how to get a bolt back into a Ross rifle?”  He sure had me there.  Anyway, I put all the bolts back into the rifles and abandoned this plan.  

Another random thought.  I know some here have taken care to educate their spouse on what they have, where the documentation is, etc.  Remember, there’s a reason they don’t let the President and Vice President ride on the same plane.  A car accident can derail this plan.  If you have adult children or other relatives who can also be educated as far as what’s where, who to call, etc… well, I was going to say you’ll be glad you did… but given you won’t be around, that’s probably not the case.

For me, the older I get, the larger his topic looms.  

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November 19, 2021 - 9:01 pm
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Maybe the story is legitimate. But I’m not sure I believe the “sob story” of the”widow” selling off her late husband’s firearms.  It seems too professional and the photographs seem to display more than the average “widow” might display.

Also, the feedback number being 728 suggests a commercial enterprise.

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November 19, 2021 - 10:17 pm
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I

mrcvs said
Maybe the story is legitimate. But I’m not sure I believe the “sob story” of the”widow” selling off her late husband’s firearms.  It seems too professional and the photographs seem to display more than the average “widow” might display.

Also, the feedback number being 728 suggests a commercial enterprise.  

I don’t buy the SOB story one bit.  This seller (Almostaranch) has quite a history of peddling refinished/faked Winchesters for quite some time.  In the same category as “Selling dad’s old guns” in my opinion.

Don

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November 19, 2021 - 11:01 pm
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There’s a reason I call Cabela’s Gun Library “The Orphanage”. Many of the best items are from estates. They don’t give top dollar because their overhead is very high, sometimes they don’t know what exactly they’re buying, but last I heard they will buy the entire firearms collection and write a check on the spot. Steve made a good point about detached items, I try hard to put them in bags or boxes with the serial number written on it but who’s going to know to look for them?

I’m a confirmed bachelor and my extended family’s knowledge of my collection Is limited, they only see the dollar signs. I have no idea what will come of my reloading and casting equipment when I’m gone, I’ll just have to do my best to wear it all out before I go. I understand and share your concern, Steve. Disposing of a collection is hard work, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

 

Mike

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November 19, 2021 - 11:03 pm
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deerhunter said
I

I don’t buy the SOB story one bit.  This seller (Almostaranch) has quite a history of peddling refinished/faked Winchesters for quite some time.  In the same category as “Selling dad’s old guns” in my opinion.

Don  

I don’t think you guys are right on this.  I recall she had a rifle that caught my eye so I delved into it a bit.  Her husband’s account had been “almostaranch” and then it went dormant quite a while.  After several years, she started it up again, and the feedback started to flow again.  Her pictures are pretty good but women can take photos.  I think the husband is indeed, no longer with us.

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November 19, 2021 - 11:10 pm
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Her husband may in fact no longer be with us–my condolences.  But he was a schmoozer when it came to Winchesters.  Not on my list to buy from for sure. 

Don

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November 19, 2021 - 11:22 pm
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deerhunter said
Her husband may in fact no longer be with us–my condolences.  But he was a schmoozer when it came to Winchesters.  Not on my list to buy from for sure. 

Don  

I agree with this.  He was peddling a lot of refinished Winchesters for sure.  And it seems she got stuck with a lot of refinished guns.  The extant to which she knew this, I have no idea.  She at least posted enough quality photos that most buyers can detect the refinishing.  

I picked this out of her feedback from this summer.  I realize anything you read on the internet should be approached with skepticism but I think there is a fair chance this is real:

Travis1955 A+(18)
 
06/20/2021
I had the honor of meeting Lisa. She is an extraordinary woman! I wouldn’t hesitate buying from her again. The rifle I bought exceeded my expectations. She’s completely honest and I wish her the best!
 
 
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November 19, 2021 - 11:33 pm
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steve004 said

deerhunter said
Her husband may in fact no longer be with us–my condolences.  But he was a schmoozer when it came to Winchesters.  Not on my list to buy from for sure. 

Don  

I agree with this.  He was peddling a lot of refinished Winchesters for sure.  And it seems she got stuck with a lot of refinished guns.  The extant to which she knew this, I have no idea.  She at least posted enough quality photos that most buyers can detect the refinishing.  

I see there was a two year period there was zero feedback on this account (2017 to 2019).  There was quite a bit of feedback on this account up until summer, 2017 and then it came to a complete halt.  I’m pretty sure he passed away right in there.

I picked this out of her feedback from this summer.  I realize anything you read on the internet should be approached with skepticism but I think there is a fair chance this is real:

Travis1955 A+(18)
 
06/20/2021
902494631
I had the honor of meeting Lisa. She is an extraordinary woman! I wouldn’t hesitate buying from her again. The rifle I bought exceeded my expectations. She’s completely honest and I wish her the best!
 
   
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November 19, 2021 - 11:52 pm
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TXGunNut said
There’s a reason I call Cabela’s Gun Library “The Orphanage”. Many of the best items are from estates. They don’t give top dollar because their overhead is very high, sometimes they don’t know what exactly they’re buying, but last I heard they will buy the entire firearms collection and write a check on the spot. Steve made a good point about detached items, I try hard to put them in bags or boxes with the serial number written on it but who’s going to know to look for them?

I’m a confirmed bachelor and my extended family’s knowledge of my collection Is limited, they only see the dollar signs. I have no idea what will come of my reloading and casting equipment when I’m gone, I’ll just have to do my best to wear it all out before I go. I understand and share your concern, Steve. Disposing of a collection is hard work, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

 

Mike  

Mike – I’ve been thinking about getting small plastic slipcovers – about the size of index card – that I would attach to the trigger guards.  Inside would be a description of the piece – about the length of a typical auction description.  Presently I have a three-ring binder with all the museum letters and other paper provenance in clear sheet page protectors. Each of those protectors has a number and there is small tag attached to the trigger guard of each corresponding piece with that same number.  A person might ask why not just put the auction descriptions in there as well.  I may do that, but I sort of like the idea of having the description attached directly to the piece – that way no one has to match anything up.  

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November 20, 2021 - 12:07 am
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steve004 said
  As most of us know, lever actions pack into safes well.  Bolt rifles, not as well.  Hence, you can pack more lever rifles than bolt rifles in a safe.  Hence, if some have to be left out, it’s likely to be bolt rifles.  I had this great idea, if the bolts were removed from the rifle and at least they were kept in the safe, that would decrease the risk of theft.    

When you’ve got money to buy so many guns you can’t cram them all in your safe, it seems surprising you wouldn’t have money enough to buy a new safe; not that I profess to be an authority on safes–I’ve never owned, nor wanted, one.  

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November 20, 2021 - 2:27 am
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I do not mean to disparage anyone but when AlmostARanch posted some “rare” .22 rimfire rifles for sale about 5-6 years ago about which I had SERIOUS reservations and outright proof of shenanigans I posted questions on Gunbroker and via email and ALL of the responses were from “Lisa” who denied any knowledge and ignored the factual evidence (such as the bolt serial number not matching the receiver, etc.).  I never, ever received a response from the “husband” in the years I watched the auctions and asked questions.

I shy away from ANY auction from AlmostARanch, no matter what the current story is.  Bottom line is that it is the same crap that was peddled before and the quality of the “story” is just as good, if not better.  This is one of those cases where you should “buy the gun and not the story”.

Sorry if my post seems remorseless but I have no patience or empathy for pathological liars.

As mentioned, thankfully the pictures are clear enough to see the problems which was likely intentional to deflect lawsuits but not uneducated collectors.

Anyway, just my opinion based on experience with that particular seller.

Best Regards,

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November 20, 2021 - 2:42 am
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JWA said

Sorry if my post seems remorseless but I have no patience or empathy for pathological liars.
 

Not even “Dad’s Old Guns”?

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November 20, 2021 - 2:42 am
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I’m going to turn the tables here.

First, I’ll state I’ve never been the recipient of a rare Winchester rifle sold to me for $20, but…

I get tired of hearing about the “poor” widow who sold her late husband’s firearms for a song.  This widow has a brain, she can Google on the internet and get an idea of valuation and/or establish value using publications.  If she chooses to arbitrarily determine that a Winchester 1886 rifle with condition and dripping with features for $50, that’s her choice and if she didn’t do her research, I have no sympathy for her.

Why don’t you ever hear of the husband selling his late wife’s $40,000 Tiffany lamp for $25?

If you ask me, the widow who is the subject matter of this thread is a scam artist extraordinaire!

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November 20, 2021 - 3:30 am
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JWA said
I do not mean to disparage anyone but when AlmostARanch posted some “rare” .22 rimfire rifles for sale about 5-6 years ago about which I had SERIOUS reservations and outright proof of shenanigans I posted questions on Gunbroker and via email and ALL of the responses were from “Lisa” who denied any knowledge and ignored the factual evidence (such as the bolt serial number not matching the receiver, etc.).  I never, ever received a response from the “husband” in the years I watched the auctions and asked questions.

I shy away from ANY auction from AlmostARanch, no matter what the current story is.  Bottom line is that it is the same crap that was peddled before and the quality of the “story” is just as good, if not better.  This is one of those cases where you should “buy the gun and not the story”.

Sorry if my post seems remorseless but I have no patience or empathy for pathological liars.

As mentioned, thankfully the pictures are clear enough to see the problems which was likely intentional to deflect lawsuits but not uneducated collectors.

Anyway, just my opinion based on experience with that particular seller.

Best Regards,  

You’ve certainly added some interesting information.  For the items she’s listed in recent times, I don’t see obvious shenanigans.  She listed the model and chambering of the rifle – then posts photos.  She leaves it up to the buyer to decide if he wants the rifle – based on what he sees.  I think anyone with some level of knowledge can quickly see that these pieces are not original.  From reading the feedbacks and comments, it appears buyers are getting what they thought they were getting.  I don’t know Lisa, never talked to her, never corresponded with her nor with her husband.  I do recall his ads going back many years ago.  I never purchased anything as my interest is in original pieces. I only referenced her as I’ve tried to study how various collections have been disbursed and I found her story interesting.  So – maybe there never was a husband?  It is the internet after all, where anything can happen (or not happen).  

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November 20, 2021 - 3:57 am
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clarence said 

Not even “Dad’s Old Guns”?  

Even less so with the “king of fake boxes” and/or “not original to the gun” boxes……

As always, Caveat Emptor.

Best Regards,

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November 20, 2021 - 4:00 am
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mrcvs said   This widow has a brain, she can Google on the internet and get an idea of valuation and/or establish value using publications.

Or does she?  (Have a brain, that is.)  What about all the folks who ask the same kind of question here

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November 20, 2021 - 4:11 am
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steve004 said

You’ve certainly added some interesting information.  For the items she’s listed in recent times, I don’t see obvious shenanigans.  She listed the model and chambering of the rifle – then posts photos.  She leaves it up to the buyer to decide if he wants the rifle – based on what he sees.  I think anyone with some level of knowledge can quickly see that these pieces are not original.  From reading the feedbacks and comments, it appears buyers are getting what they thought they were getting.  I don’t know Lisa, never talked to her, never corresponded with her nor with her husband.  I do recall his ads going back many years ago.  I never purchased anything as my interest is in original pieces. I only referenced her as I’ve tried to study how various collections have been disbursed and I found her story interesting.  So – maybe there never was a husband?  It is the internet after all, where anything can happen (or not happen).    

Hi Steve,

I hardly ever post anything negative about anyone but in this case(s) it is well deserved and previously documented by other more knowledgeable and burned by the sellers than I.  I don’t know if there is/was a husband or not, every email response I received over the last number of years was from her (Lisa Thomas) so she was obviously heavily involved in the business. 

Again, just my experience and perspective.  Everyone should judge the guns on their own merit and then decide if you are satisfied or not.  When looking at the feedback many were happy and some not.  I was never satisfied with any of the inquiry responses when compared to the actual item description so, in fact, I have never purchased anything from AlmostARanch even though they posted some tempting bait.

Best Regards,

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November 20, 2021 - 4:18 am
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clarence said

mrcvs said   This widow has a brain, she can Google on the internet and get an idea of valuation and/or establish value using publications.

Or does she?  (Have a brain, that is.)  What about all the folks who ask the same kind of question here?   

I don’t see why she would have need for a valuation.  She is already running her gunbroker auctions in the most effective way – no reserve and starting them at a penny.  This is the same way Austinguns and Chayn’s structure their auctions.  When gun are sold in this format of auction, they will generally sell for what they are worth. She doesn’t provide a description/opinion regarding condition, but other than a small minority of exceptions (such as Austinguns or Chayn’s), gunbroker descriptions are commonly full of lies, B.S. and exaggeration.  Unless it is that rare trusted seller, do any of us give much credence to a gunbroker seller’s description or opinion on condition, originality, rarity and so on?

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November 20, 2021 - 4:24 am
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clarence said

mrcvs said   This widow has a brain, she can Google on the internet and get an idea of valuation and/or establish value using publications.

Or does she?  (Have a brain, that is.)  What about all the folks who ask the same kind of question here?   

Okay, asking here is another form of research.  They can easily choose to ask questions here, or choose not to.

Folks paint a picture of the poor widow being taken advantage of.  Women are more likely to attend college then men these days.  So, it’s not like they can’t think on their own, and make rational decisions, for better or worse.  That woman studying engineering now might be a widow several decades down the road.  She didn’t get that degree due to an inability to think critically.  Then again, some go to college and study women’s studies and other fields that might not necessarily lead to a job.  Maybe, and that’s a big maybe, those individuals might lack the ability to research the sale of their late husband’s firearms.

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November 20, 2021 - 4:29 am
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JWA said

steve004 said

You’ve certainly added some interesting information.  For the items she’s listed in recent times, I don’t see obvious shenanigans.  She listed the model and chambering of the rifle – then posts photos.  She leaves it up to the buyer to decide if he wants the rifle – based on what he sees.  I think anyone with some level of knowledge can quickly see that these pieces are not original.  From reading the feedbacks and comments, it appears buyers are getting what they thought they were getting.  I don’t know Lisa, never talked to her, never corresponded with her nor with her husband.  I do recall his ads going back many years ago.  I never purchased anything as my interest is in original pieces. I only referenced her as I’ve tried to study how various collections have been disbursed and I found her story interesting.  So – maybe there never was a husband?  It is the internet after all, where anything can happen (or not happen).    

Hi Steve,

I hardly ever post anything negative about anyone but in this case(s) it is well deserved and previously documented by other more knowledgeable and burned by the sellers than I.  I don’t know if there is/was a husband or not, every email response I received over the last number of years was from her (Lisa Thomas) so she was obviously heavily involved in the business. 

Again, just my experience and perspective.  Everyone should judge the guns on their own merit and then decide if you are satisfied or not.  When looking at the feedback many were happy and some not.  I was never satisfied with any of the inquiry responses when compared to the actual item description so, in fact, I have never purchased anything from AlmostARanch even though they posted some tempting bait.

Best Regards,  

Again, you have added some valuable experience and information.  I have none with her.  Given the alterations to the guns she/he sells, there was little chance I would have interaction with her.  However, other’s might and the discussion provided here this evening should give them pause.  We can’t look back at the items listed back in time.  I know I looked at some but can’t recall them but my conjecture is there were longer descriptions – probably filled with inaccurate or misleading false information.  This would be back when the husband was writing them – but who knows, maybe there never was a husband.  I would be surprised if she is operating like Dad’s Old Guns – that is – out actively buying guns, having them reblued and then selling them on gunbroker. Or even just out buying reblued guns and then selling them on gunbroker.  But, it’s a weird world out there.  Again, the gunbroker feedback showed there was a significant history as a buyer, which stopped abruptly in 2017.  

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