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I was at a Gun Show last weekend, 550 tables, not big but the best Wisconsin has to offer. The crowd was light so I had time to watch the people, one young man (mid 20’s) walked past me talking on his cell phone loudly, he said “I’m at a Gun Show and everyone looks like my Grampa”. I looked around and he was right, everyone was my age. Sad state of affairs! Where is this going, what can we do? T/R
November 7, 2015
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I’ve made the same observation, I wonder if the “gun collecting” gene will die with the Baby Boomers. Many of the guns I’ve bought in recent years came from estates of early boomers. I can’t recall selling a pre-64 Winchester to anyone younger than me. I don’t have an answer to either question other than take the time to answer questions about old Winchesters at gun shows and any other opportunities.
Mike
When I started collecting a old senior collector educated me and guided me thru the financial land mines, (over priced Bubba guns). I’ve done the same since and started several collectors, but in the last 10 years the interest in old guns has slowed much like hunting. I’m not worried about the value of my collection, it will be someone else’s problem after I die. What scares me is will the gun shows continue, is there enough interest? T/R
I have my own opinion on the future of collecting “antique” firearms. I’m 69 years old and have collected Winchesters, Colts and cowboy gear for 55 years. To say I love collecting, is an understatement. My problem has always been the fact that I can’t be happy by just specializing in a certain area. I have to have everything. If I buy an 1876 Winchester in .50 Express, I then have to buy a reloading tool, bullet mold and a box of ammo, all to go with this gun. Eventually, I’ll end up doing this another 10 times, for every model and caliber Winchester I have owned. Then I buy a vintage holster and cartridge belt from the early 1880 period and end up with a Colt SA, a pair of shotgun chaps and a saddle, all of the same time period. I’ve done this 50 times over. I have in the past few years, begun to sell off a lot of things, realizing that if I die tomorrow, all of the “stuff” that I love ,will become a REAL nightmare for my family. I love them too much to say “this will be your problem after I’m gone”. Collecting, buying, selling and trading this stuff that we love so much, is becoming more difficult with each passing year. The reason for this was mentioned in the previous posts. WE’RE ALL GETTING OLD and THE YOUNGER GENERATION DOSEN’T HAVE THE INTEREST or THE MONEY. Times change and it sucks.
The high end stuff will always have value. I’m talking about original high condition firearms. Ideally with several special order features. These are investment grade firearms, often sold at auction, and the auction house promotes its upcoming auction by taking out full page advertisements in The Wall Street Journal. To appeal to individuals, some who may never have even handled a firearm before, who are of high net worth and are seeking alternative investment vehicles to the usual (stocks, real estate, gold, fine art, etc).
The brown/patina stuff has little of a future. I would liquidate much of that now. I have gotten rid of some of this stuff I had and have kept a few to take to the range, but I should probably sell what little I have left without any condition.
win4575, Your collecting style and interest sound the same as mine. I to have begun to sell off some things but have got to a point where what’s left is not replaceable. My collection has given me a hobby, (fun). I have lost two collector friends in the last two years, they too did not want to burden their families, but could not sell. They cataloged their collection and left instructions, the guns went away smoothly, no burden, just money. My choice of words was poor, I should not of said problem. T/R
mrcvs said
The high end stuff will always have value. I’m talking about original high condition firearms. Ideally with several special order features. These are investment grade firearms, often sold at auction, and the auction house promotes its upcoming auction by taking out full page advertisements in The Wall Street Journal. To appeal to individuals, some who may never have even handled a firearm before, who are of high net worth and are seeking alternative investment vehicles to the usual (stocks, real estate, gold, fine art, etc).The brown/patina stuff has little of a future. I would liquidate much of that now. I have gotten rid of some of this stuff I had and have kept a few to take to the range, but I should probably sell what little I have left without any condition.
The only problem for us younger collectors(i’m 38) is that even the brown/patina stuff is expensive. I bought my first pre 64′ 94 carbine ten years ago for 400 bucks….you can’t find one now for less the 1k. Even being a brown gun. I know everyone here will say that is overpriced, but when all the dealers are listing them at that price, what can you do?
TR, I agree with much of what you and mrcvs have said. I think the high end stuff will always have value, however, for those younger guys who like the old guns and accessories, may only be able to afford the pieces that are original, but with much less condition. I think there will always be a market for most of it. However, I’m not sure if any of it will increase greatly from this point on. Life has and the world has changed sooo much in the past 10 or 15 years. My generation grew up watching westerns on TV and at the movie theater. Westerns are dead and don’t make money like the modern junk that most younger people enjoy. My three kids grew up with my collection and I tried to educate them on the history of that era, without forcing them to feel about it as I do. Now, they all have families of their own. My daughters are partial to some of the old guns they shot when they were young and watched me use regularly, as they grew up. My son has very little interest in any of it. But, they all like my collection, because they know how it makes me feel when I hang something new on the wall. I should also mention that my wife, bless her heart, has NEVER questioned my expensive hobby. She knows that I’ve never spent a dime from the family pot on anything and she has seen with wide eyes, what comes with the sale of some of these pieces.
win4575, You and I are on the same page. It does require a understanding wife and the husband has to be smart enough to include her in the value and liquid nature of the guns, sometimes the wide eye moments are necessary. T/R
TR … nice thread topic. Thanks for starting it.
A gun mentor whom I also consider a friend of mine- has extensively “preached to me” about the fact that, given equal total money in each …it is a better overall “investment” to have a few expensive high condition (and/or rare) pieces – than a vault filled with brown ho-hum stuff. He is certainly proven correct, and I owe him a debt of gratitude.
Some folks like quantity (and the market needs these guys) … but over the past 10 years, I have been focusing on quality – as best I can. I confess that at times it is difficult, and a relapse can happen periodically. 😉
I do not believe that the next 20 years will see the explosive appreciation in overall collector gun values that the past 20 to 30 years has seen … but I feel that blue chip pieces will always outpace most of the alternatives. High end collector “Stuff” values run in cycles – we see it not only in guns, but also in; classic cars, art, antiques, etc. Timing of both acquisition as well as disposal … along with, and to some extent … the provenance & source of purchases – will prove to be a major factor in whether $$ will be made or lost. As an aside… there is also a priceless intrinsic value in the; camaraderie, fun and enjoyment we get; searching for, owning and researching our treasures.
My collections in general (guns and “stuff”) could be considered eclectic in nature … but I see it as a way to spread out “Asset Allocation” in my “overall portfolio”. I am not spending living expense money on my hobby – as my kids are out of college with zero student debt, and I paid off the mortgage on my home and properties almost 4 years ago. I am currently having fun collecting really cool items – some of which may one day be considered “national treasures”.
I also have to say ditto to the spouse comment, as I too – have a very understanding wife … that does not try to “one up me” and pressure me for equal $$ for her hobbies (which thank God are not as expensive as mine). An annual Mexico vacation away from the cold midwest … and a periodic trip to the Sergio Bustamante jewelry store (her weakness) while in Mexico, and I pretty much have a green light for the rest of the year. 🙂
– Long Spur Hollow
The question of collector interest and longevity comes up at nearly every gun show I attend, and often more than once. Im in my early 50’s and got into collecting a little more than 20 years ago as a way to have another common interest with my dad who had been a Win collector since the 60’s. Back in the early days I tried to collect anything I could get my hands on that was special order or a rarity. Later on I got rid of everything that didnt have a desired caliber or ones I just got tired of looking at in the safe–configurations that just didnt have eye appeal for my tastes. The motivation hasnt really been about the investment aspect of collecting although over the years its been nice. Its been geared more towards guns that just catch my eye for one reason or another and what seemed to be reasonable or affordable, or those already owned that have sentimental value. If I had to sell everything off today, the guns that have been passed down or the clunkers I enjoy using the most would be the last ones to go, if they go at all.
Whether the gun shows as we know them now will survive the coming years is uncertain. It depends largely these days who we elect to offices or to the courts. But it also depends in large degree how we promote an interest in collecting starting with ourselves and the folks we interact with whether at shows or on a daily basis. When you go to one of the largest shows in the world (Tulsa) twice a year and your one of the younger guys there, its a little disconcerting. And at the smaller shows everything is geared towards new production guns and your hard pressed to find more than 10 out of 300-400 tables that have Winchesters–and the crowds at those shows are my age or considerably younger. With my friends, kids, or anyone willing to listen I always try to stress simplicity and quality over the new. Sometimes they see the reasoning, most times not. It may be a generational disconnect, or of several generations, from those days of the classic westerns, who knows. Maybe its just how our culture is geared now and how we view things in the “disposable” age for most things like vehicles, electronics, furniture, and most everything else produced for the mass market. The market for certain types of guns will always fluctuate whether in the good or the bad. However, I believe there will always be a calling for old and quality firearms and if your fortunate enough to couple condition and rarity your doing good. But most importantly, enjoy what you have.
Chris
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Judging form the comments in this thread we all have the same concern. What can we do about it? I think Chris is spot on when he said, ” But it also depends in large degree how we promote an interest in collecting starting with ourselves and the folks we interact at shows or on a daily basis.” I think the Forum plays a huge role, giving anyone the ability to ask questions and share knowledge. T/R
As I am sitting here closing out my 2nd week in Mexico I have another two cent opinion.
While my reply yesterday to T/R s thread came out as mainly focused on the future of collecting fine guns and why we do it (which had become a bit of a “sub-topic within the subject of the thread) , today … I wish to express some thoughts on Gun Shows.
In a ” nut shell” – “The Times … they’re a changing”. ..
We get; our information, our news, and our catalogs way different now. We communicate and we shop in a way that 30 or 40 years ago was only seen on “The Jetsons”.
The internet along with – smart phones and high resolution digital photography has made the marketing and inspection of guns and stuff almost (emphasis on almost) as good as a first hand inspection.
Gun Broker and Guns International along with the many fine sales sites managed by the likes of Merzanitiques.com and Collectorsfirearms.com, etc … have essentially put a “gun show” in every person’s office or living room. And Forums such as this one are an information goldmine…that used to usually require face to face communication for the same transfer of knowledge.
From both the dealer perspective as well as the tech savvy individuals perspective … the world of collecting ( buying and selling) has shrunk – and no longer has just a regional geographic reach.
Before this technology advancement – we mainly waited for our delivery of Shotgun News and equivalent newsletters and catalogs, and also went to gun shows or gun shops to pursue our hobby. But not any longer.
Gun Shows are no longer the main avenue to show off your hardware first hand to the masses… nor ideal place to search for that elusive 1st Model 1st Variation 1873 SRC. Heck… the use of Google and the search features of many Auction sites can narrow a focus and create informational results that far exceed 2 or 3 days of “wandering around” thousands of tables at a large show.
While I hate to stereotype or generalize … I would be willing to bet that many if not most of the “old timers” T/R is observing at his most recent gun show – do not have (or at least know how to properly use) a “smartphone” , nor make regular use of the internet or email. These old school folks are currently the backbone of shows … and as we loose more of these guys – the shows will certainly need to adapt to take care of the attrition factor.
We must keep in mind that we are expecting the same generation that; collected Pokemon Cards, played video games all day, and think Honda Civics with loud mufflers are “Boss Cars” – to embrace a hobby that is as American as apple pie and baseball. I have full faith that this young and wealthy generation – that is all about; short attention spans, Amazon, social media , and taking food pics and selfies will eventually come around… but shows may be different for them and perhaps even “virtual”, with 3d holographic interaction. Even the Jetsons will then be shaking their heads in wonderment.
Cheers.
Long Spur Hollow
So as a collector who is a young 45, I also have a few thoughts. A friend of mine and myself were talking about how we could be the future old guys at the show, and we chuckled at it- but I feel it’s true.Time flies and I am sure most of the older collectors have no idea what happened to the last twenty years(I certainly have no idea).I frequent most any shoew I can, and joined the ogca a few years ago and have come to one conclusion. There are just as many goofy people with tables as there actual good people.You just have to sift through and find the good ones who are willing to talk,deal and generally assist a younger version of themselves. I think old guns and their history is far more educational and enjoyable than most hobbies- but that’s one of the things that I like to do. To me they are all little pieces of history that I wish could talk.So a big thank you to all of you’old timers’ that actually respect someone who has an interest in something that you do.A big no thanks to the old timers who say that the front blade sight of a model 94 came loose from the factory, or that a stock that is in two pieces doesn’t affect the value of a gun- it’s an old gun what do you want!(true story).my point is that I feel sometimes the old timer is more important than the gun,because that old timer is the only reason that gun is there.so if there are enough good ones out there, and I know there are,we can all hope there will always be a show or place where people gather to talk and buy guns.Becuaes let’s face it you can look at something online but I don’t think there’s any comparison to stumbling on that saddle ring carbine that you immediately know was the one you were looking for( also a true story). Sharing information is the only way people learn about anything!
Bill,
Well said! I am one of the few that is right in the middle of the “age groups (59-years old)… not old enough to be a bona fide “old timer”, but also not part of the younger generation. Fortunately for me, I have almost always been around the older crowd, and at times, have sometimes been accused of being a “curmudgeon” myself…
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
I would not consider you a “curmudgeon”, Maybe you can be a bit surly sometimes but hey that’s why we love you.
I also have a very understanding wife (Princess). She does give me a raised eyebrow now and again but she does also understand a pretty rifle.
Our two boys (27 & 23) both like to hunt, shoot and collect. The issue with their collecting is everything they like is more than their budget will allow. I think most of us have this issue. I have helped/subsidized a few purchases for them as I myself have been the beneficiary of more than a few really good deals from older collectors (Larry S).
Looking and handling rifles at a gun show is a thrill but so is anticipating and receiving a new purchase in the mail. It will be tough for this hobby to grow/maintain without the comradery and willingness to share information being passed down from the advanced to the green collectors. I don’t see that happening without Gun shows or some other similar venue.
When I started collecting pre-Civil War guns were the rage. Collect what you like and be happy. Only the dealers have to worry about their investment. My wife or daughter will get what money is left in my guns. At least they will be worth something. I feel that I am in the middle years when considering I have a lot of friends in their 80’s. I’m 10 years older than Bert.
Chuck said
I feel that I am in the middle years when considering I have a lot of friends in their 80’s. I’m 10 years older than Bert.
In other words, that means you are about to enter the realm of “Geezerdom” !
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I feel like I went through that door a few years ago. Terrible memory and bad eyes..
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
Bill,
Well said! I am one of the few that is right in the middle of the “age groups (59-years old)… not old enough to be a bona fide “old timer”, but also not part of the younger generation. Fortunately for me, I have almost always been around the older crowd, and at times, have sometimes been accused of being a “curmudgeon” myself…
Bert
Sounds like somebody had a birthday recently, 59 for the first time. Belated happy birthday, Bert.
Mike
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