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twobit said
1ned1 said
twobit said
Rick C said
I almost didn’t start this thread as I thought it must have been discussed or just a known fact but, after not being able to find anything anywhere about the marks, and with everyone’s assistance, it turned out very informative.
Would be nice to know the earliest gun with them so maybe in time, we’ll get some more information about them.
Rick,
The patent of the takedown assembly was granted in 1893, hence the date stamped on the lever. One of the difficulties is finding VERY early guns in good enough condition that these very light marks might be visible.
Michael
Model 1892’s These are some of the earliest T/D rifles and they do not appear to be marked. It might be a few days but I will go through ALL of my images and see if I can determine an “earliest marked” date.
Here is an early 1892 TD rifle that I suspect is in unusually nice condition. Particularly the receiver. I checked it with a very strong magnifying glass and could find no sign of the mark.
I totally agree. Your rifle is part of a large “batch” of T/D frame sporting rifles that appear to not be marked. Could I please get some pics of the barrel address, upper tang, and a few showing the entire rifle so that I can add it into my survey?
Thanks
Michael
Hi Michael, Thank you for the chart above. Great information.
I have attached the photos here. I didn’t have the photo with the caliber. Its 44 W.C.F
Ned
1ned1 said
twobit said
1ned1 said
twobit said
Rick C said
I almost didn’t start this thread as I thought it must have been discussed or just a known fact but, after not being able to find anything anywhere about the marks, and with everyone’s assistance, it turned out very informative.
Would be nice to know the earliest gun with them so maybe in time, we’ll get some more information about them.
Rick,
The patent of the takedown assembly was granted in 1893, hence the date stamped on the lever. One of the difficulties is finding VERY early guns in good enough condition that these very light marks might be visible.
Michael
Model 1892’s These are some of the earliest T/D rifles and they do not appear to be marked. It might be a few days but I will go through ALL of my images and see if I can determine an “earliest marked” date.
Here is an early 1892 TD rifle that I suspect is in unusually nice condition. Particularly the receiver. I checked it with a very strong magnifying glass and could find no sign of the mark.
I totally agree. Your rifle is part of a large “batch” of T/D frame sporting rifles that appear to not be marked. Could I please get some pics of the barrel address, upper tang, and a few showing the entire rifle so that I can add it into my survey?
Thanks
Michael
Hi Michael, Thank you for the chart above. Great information.
I have attached the photos here. I didn’t have the photo with the caliber. Its 44 W.C.F
Ned
Thanks so much for the pics. That is one VERY nice condition rifle. My guess is that it has hardly EVER been used since it was purchased long ago. Great find.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
The earliest marked rifle I have found is SN 28360 which entered the warehouse on September of 1894. But this seems to be an outlier since other rifle in the same small batch are not marked. Consistent marked takedowns begin at SN 37000, 37057, and 37077 which corresponds to November and December of 1894. This timing seems to explain why all 1894’s are marked since they appear after the inception of the practice on the 1892’s. It would be interesting to see the timing of the change on the 1886 rifles.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Going off topic here!
I found Michael’s survey image with the clump of early TD’s very interesting. It prompted me to do some searching, and something a bit interesting came to light. I have often wondered about the in-out dates on my factory letter as pertaining to early first year T/D’s
I found letter information on three of these rifles including mine. Although obviously a very small sample, the warehouse in & out and S/N applied information on these seem a bit odd with respect to timing.
– My rifle S/N-16211. Order #21591. In 9/15/94 – out 9/18/94 (looks like first year guns are actually second year guns).
– Rifle S/N-16166. No order #. In 11/8/93 – No out. S/N applied 8/16/92 (S/N applied date ??)
– Rifle S/N-16597. Order #19339. In 9/15/93 – out 9/17/94. That “in” date must be a typo! If so, basically the same dates as my rifle. Order# is 2252 numbers earlier than mine. (again, first year guns are second year guns).
Being wholly ignorant of the production process, this all seems a bit strange to me.
Thank you for the nice comments on my rifle Michael.
Ned
Online
1ned1 said
Going off topic here!I found Michael’s survey image with the clump of early TD’s very interesting. It prompted me to do some searching, and something a bit interesting came to light. I have often wondered about the in-out dates on my factory letter as pertaining to early first year T/D’s
I found letter information on three of these rifles including mine. Although obviously a very small sample, the warehouse in & out and S/N applied information on these seem a bit odd with respect to timing.
– My rifle S/N-16211. Order #21591. In 9/15/94 – out 9/18/94 (looks like first year guns are actually second year guns).
– Rifle S/N-16166. No order #. In 11/8/93 – No out. S/N applied 8/16/92 (S/N applied date ??)
– Rifle S/N-16597. Order #19339. In 9/15/93 – out 9/17/94. That “in” date must be a typo! If so, basically the same dates as my rifle. Order# is 2252 numbers earlier than mine. (again, first year guns are second year guns).
Being wholly ignorant of the production process, this all seems a bit strange to me.
Thank you for the nice comments on my rifle Michael.
Ned
The only time that the “date” should be sequential with the serial numbers is the SNA date recorded in the Polishing Room records. The “received” and “sold” (shipped) dates will be very erratic.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
looks like we have all found out something new on Winchesters. Great topic.
oldcrankyyankee said
looks like we have all found out something new on Winchesters. Great topic.
Yes, agreed! You wouldn’t believe the number of times I had seen these in the past, especially on a high condition takedown rifle, and thought how odd, a scratch that transcends the two sections. I was never observant enough to attribute the “oddness” to potential witness marks.
November 7, 2015
Offline
twobit said
The earliest marked rifle I have found is SN 28360 which entered the warehouse on September of 1894. But this seems to be an outlier since other rifle in the same small batch are not marked. Consistent marked takedowns begin at SN 37000, 37057, and 37077 which corresponds to November and December of 1894. This timing seems to explain why all 1894’s are marked since they appear after the inception of the practice on the 1892’s. It would be interesting to see the timing of the change on the 1886 rifles.
Michael
Michael-
I think we may have discovered why no memos addressing this change to the 1892 have been discovered. If we were to review the 1894 drawings and memos we may find that the marking was part of the 1894 T/D development and applied to the 1892.
Mike
So, what have we learned? Some have the marks and some don’t. Many may have been done at the factory? Maybe not all assemblers did it?
So, would someone sum it up for me? Not arguing, just confused.
Chuck,
So far it appears these marks are done by the factory, way to many and all similar to be done by Bubba. Question still remains: what time periods did the factory apply them, on what models, and was this standard procedure or random? T/R
TXGunNut said I think we may have discovered why no memos addressing this change to the 1892 have been discovered.
I think that is a big assumption, and would be confirmation bias. How well has something this specific been researched?
If we were to review the 1894 drawings and memos we may find that the marking was part of the 1894 T/D development and applied to the 1892.
The takedown mechanism that became the company standard, and which is used on all the rifles previously shown. Was patented on June 6th, 1893. Before the Model 1894 was produced. So I’m not certain that it was specifically designed for the Model 1894.
My suspicion is that something like a Change In Manufacture Notice was sent out to apply these markings on all takedown rifles. Likely something to do with helping either the factory and/or even the general public when using the takedown mechanism. A lot of the early produced takedowns had to be returned to the factory for repair because the public did not understand how to properly use the takedown system. Which after a few years Winchester started including hang tags with Warning and Instructions on how to properly takedown the rifle. It is easy to bend or break the cartridge extractor without the action being open when taking down a rifle.
A question I’d like to know is date ranges for when these marks were applied to all takedown models. When did they start and stop being applied?
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
So would it be safe to say that the 86, 92, 94 and 95 got them at the same time?
Chuck said
So would it be safe to say that the 86, 92, 94 and 95 got them at the same time?
Probably a good assumption. Although the Model 95 and 85 use a different takedown mechanism. So such marks may not have been necessary on those models.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Thanks Maverick.
I really don’t collect take downs but I would buy one if the rifle was what I was looking for. Take downs can be a hassle if messed with. My thoughts are that I don’t take them down so I’m assured the mechanism stays tight.
Chuck said
So would it be safe to say that the 86, 92, 94 and 95 got them at the same time?
Chuck,
As I mentioned in my earlier reply in this thread the earliest 1892’s are found on rifles that entered the warehouse in November and December of 1894 right around the time that the 1894’s began to be produced. So they may have begun at the same time. It is yet to be determined if the 1886 rifles coincide with this time frame. Since the 1895 was not produced yet it is impossible that it “got them at the same time”
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Chuck said
So would it be safe to say that the 86, 92, 94 and 95 got them at the same time?
No it would not. The Single Shot and the Model 1895 share the same Take Down system (patented in May 1907), and first used on the Single Shot (not adopted for the 1895 until 1910).
The Take Down mechanism used for the Model 1886, 1892, and 1894 (later used on the Models 53 and 55) was first used in the year 1893. After doing some searching, I found an early Model 1894 TD with those marks.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
This is a picture of a very early production Model 55 (fellow WACA member Deerehart collection) clearly showing the alignment marks.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I saw this one this morning on Merz site.
Sure looks like a small straight chisel was used to make the mark, after it was lined up. I do agree with others, as too many have showed up to be a coincidence. When you strike a piece of metal with a cold chisel, as this looks to me, the metal gets pushed aside, in many cases, as it has to go somewhere, and if you can look close, the metal edges of the strike, looks to me that it was struck, with a sharp edge knife like cold metal chisel, vs. a roll mark from a machine, that would be deeper, in most cases, and have sharper, more defined corners! IMO!
Tony
Bert H. said
Chuck said
So would it be safe to say that the 86, 92, 94 and 95 got them at the same time?
No it would not. The Single Shot and the Model 1895 share the same Take Down system (patented in May 1907), and first used on the Single Shot (not adopted for the 1895 until 1910).
The Take Down mechanism used for the Model 1886, 1892, and 1894 (later used on the Models 53 and 55) was first used in the year 1893. After doing some searching, I found an early Model 1894 TD with those marks.
Bert
OK. Someone, not me, that has access to all of this info needs to start a spreadsheet. I guess I need to look at my 85 20 ga. to see if it has the marks.
Rick C said
I’m not sure if this is a Merz thing but I’ve seen these lines on several other guns I’ve owned(92’s) and these Merz model 55 takedowns. Any thoughts?
Found this one also on Merz site, as I’m pretty sure that we all agree this was a possibility, but not really probable,as this one doesn’t have the alignment marks, as Rick did state later, that it surely looks to be a Winchester Factory mark. As Chuck stated a time consuming, spread sheet, would be nice, as the findings from all of the members above, are a very nice addition.
Tony
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