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I remember that someone said he changed his username a couple months ago. What is his new username?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I remember that someone said he changed his username a couple months ago. What is his new username?Bob
His current nom de plume is “Winchester Guns”. He has changed his user name at least five times on Gunbroker.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert,
I thought it was him. He put up another gun, a 16″ trapper 1873 which is a clone of the real gun.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bert H. said
His current nom de plume is “Winchester Guns”. He has changed his user name at least five times on Gunbroker.
No problem as far as the “fence” (GB) is concerned; so long as they keep getting their cut, why interfere?
Call the guy out on his fakes when You see them and when you know for sure they are fake. I do it and I get cursed at a lot but “oh well”. These guys need some grief in their lives, just like they provide for the the people they scam.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
The problem with restored guns, sometimes there’s an old gun out there with the same serial number. T/R
Henry Mero said
These guys need some grief in their lives, just like they provide for the the people they scam.
Very true, but nobody with “sensitive feelings” becomes a professional con artist; being “called out” is better than nothing, but it’s not much grief for a scammer. Costing him a sale would get his attention, but even that’s only a temporary setback–the next sucker is always just around the corner.
Clarence, When someone buys a restored gun with a non Winchester applied serial number, and he pays more than the cost of the restoration he better have documentation that’s it’s the gun as serial numbered. If he doesn’t then he took a chance. The real victim is the guy who owns the original gun and now he has to prove his gun is thee gun. My question, who is stamping these guns, not who is selling them. T/R
clarence said
Very true, but nobody with “sensitive feelings” becomes a professional con artist; being “called out” is better than nothing, but it’s not much grief for a scammer. Costing him a sale would get his attention, but even that’s only a temporary setback–the next sucker is always just around the corner.
Agree 100% with Clarence on this.
AG
TR said
My question, who is stamping these guns, not who is selling them. T/R
Absolutely–that’s the $64,000 question! (Although the faking wouldn’t be profitable without a co-conspirator to transact the sale.) A “conversation,” upfront & personal, with “Dad’s old guns” is the only way to answer it.
No members close enough to Jamestown, CA, to undertake this investigation? Should be a hoot & a holler to confront this con-man.
I remember seeing his “Selling Dads Old Guns” moniker before I started getting serious into collecting. I was suspicious of him at the time, wondering how he could have a seemingly never ending supply of quality Winchesters, NIB with all the papers and tags. I noticed he changed his screen name too and that just affirmed my suspicion.
How do you guys know he’s selling fakes? I don’t doubt it, just curious how you more seasoned collectors determined it.
If he or an accomplice are actually re-stamping serial numbers, wouldn’t that be a serious crime? I’ve always thought tampering with manufacturer serial numbers would land you in very hot water.
I am not signed up on gun broker, nor do I really want to be , but if I was I would be on his case constantly for all the time it takes. Like the guy pedling fake 101Ranch guns on Guns America, He don’t like Me very well since I’ve been hassling Him on His fakes. He sure has a large vocabulary for calling Me some pretty vulgar names. I think it’s great, he probably don’t never want to come to Canada in case he runs into Me.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said
I am not signed up on gun broker, nor do I really want to be , but if I was I would be on his case constantly for all the time it takes.
Like telling a burglar, “Don’t you know theft is against the law.”
Ramsay said
How do you guys know he’s selling fakes? I don’t doubt it, just curious how you more seasoned collectors determined it.
If he or an accomplice are actually re-stamping serial numbers, wouldn’t that be a serious crime? I’ve always thought tampering with manufacturer serial numbers would land you in very hot water.
That is what someone is doing. The serial number is not close to looking right. Once the original serial number is stamped over you no longer know what is original or if there is another gun out there with the same number.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Ramsay, The professional gun restorers that restore to mint condition have been re-stamping serial numbers as long as I can remember. With the use of crime lab acid you can sometimes see the original number under the new, stamped numbers are impressed in the grain of the steel. When creating a clone, changing the serial number, they can electric weld the area and scramble the grain in the steel making it impossible to pull the original number with acid. If the person re-storing die’s are perfect and he’s highly skilled it’s hard to tell, most often they are not and most advanced collectors can tell.
If you are buying a restored gun that is rare and are paying a price beyond the cost of the restoration you need documentation confirming the serial number on the gun is the same as it was prior to the restoration. You need to know someone else doesn’t own the original gun.
As to is it legal to re-stamp a gun with the original serial number, I would guess yes. If that gun was made before January 1 1899 I would guess you could change the serial and the BATF wouldn’t care because it’s antique. As to misrepresenting the gun’s serial number, that’s a question for a lawyer. This is just my opinion and I can be wrong.
A restored original gun with the original serial number stamped on it by Winchester is worth more to me than a re-stamped one, no matter how worn the serial number is. T/R
So I just happened to ask this guy about the authenticity of the cardboard, and stating that it didn’t look like old style corrugated but rather new cardboard
his response. Very prompt, but also has the odor of a recent skunk spray, at least in my opinion.
Hopefully it will give someone a chuckle
Interesting posts, thanks guys.
Are there particular models that tend to see more fakery or even rifles above a cost threshold (i.e. many, many thousands of dollars versus just a few thousand)?
I know very little about lever guns but they seem to command some pretty high prices. I could see where fraudsters would go after them because of the money they bring. My interest is in Model 70s but I stay away from the uber rare / expensive models. I just don’t feel comfortable sinking that kind of money into something I may later learn is bogus. I’ve had an interest in WWII K98s too and holy crap fakery is everywhere. I got burned on a very expensive bayonet which I keep around to remind myself of the risks in collecting.
I’m more in the max $3k for a rifle or less crowd… is there a lot of fakery in that class too or is the payoff margin to slim for it to be worth their time? I certainly see a lot of misrepresentation in that class of rifle but I feel generally comfortable identifying that.
And I’ll say this site has been awesome to help with research. A lot of good guys willing to offer advice and a particular big thanks to Lou who has offered his opinion on several rifles I’ve asked him about!
I think the more you learn about any purchase the better off you’ll be,.This site will definitely help anyone learn, who wants to. It could be a thousand dollar gun that just isn’t right for one reason or another, and being able to distinguish the difference between correct(if that’s what your looking for ) and incorrect will help make your purchases easier. Just because a seller says it’s correct doesn’t always mean it is no matter what the price tag.
As to misrepresenting the gun’s serial number, that’s a question for a lawyer. This is just my opinion and I can be wrong.
T/R
Putting a fake serial number on the antique device, which is not regulated as a fire arm (antique), for the sole purpose to defraud someone with the purpose to induce a buyer is called fraud by inducement.
A misrepresentation for the purpose to deceive is illegal. A merchant or someone who regularly deals in “said items” who knows or has reason to know of a false material fact, and relies on this false material fact is also guilty of fraud. Someone can’t “hide” behind stupidity and claim it was like that.
A merchant in this particular situation has specialized knowledge he can’t escape by saying “it looks old”. He’s reportedly selling it as authentic, and has a duty to verify.
Problem is, he’s relying on an unknowledgeable buyer who won’t second guess the items. He knows serious collectors won’t give it a second look.
It’s a shame.
This is NOT legal advice, it’s just my view on a hypothetical situation with limited information, and more facts are needed to make a reasoned professional judgment.
A fake gun can come in any price range. It starts small with someone upgrading a guns appearance to make it look better and then progresses to changing it configuration into something more desirable which can be done with original Winchester parts swapped from one gun to the other. It was very common to see some big dealers upgrading a case colored gun with a new barrel and tube to increase its table appeal. Some dealers my not even know they are reselling a doctored gun. I watched a well respected dealer I have bought some nice iron from start putting questionable stuff on his table as his eye sight got bad. Eventually they start building guns to match a Winchester letter.
Any model gun can be faked, it all depends on how greedy the guy is. There is more money in faking the earlier guns since they sell for more but faking a later model is easier since they don’t always letter and you can explain why the blue does not have age. To protect yourself you need to learn how they fake a gun and what a real one looks like.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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