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Scope Bases for a Model 70
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January 17, 2025 - 6:13 pm
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I need to buy a set of scope bases for my 1952 Model 70.  I want a set that will accommodate modern 30 mm rings and maybe in different heights so the scope won’t hit the barrel.  The objective lens diameter could be as much as 50 mm. 

What would you recommend?  Remember I’m an antique guy.

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January 17, 2025 - 8:54 pm
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Ive have preference for the Leupold base/rings.  A one-piece base would be preferred but at the time, was having difficulty finding, but 2 piece works ok.  If your going to have a scope with 50mm objective you will need the “high” rings, and you will still have to remove the rear sight to accommodate.  Midway carries them. 

 

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There are always other options

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January 17, 2025 - 9:09 pm
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Chuck, if you desire a “period correct” look, the early Redfield one piece mount would work nicely.  Plus 30mm Leupold turn in rings fit too.  … what caliber is your Model 70?  If I have one, I’ll bring it next week. 

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January 18, 2025 - 12:34 am
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I think the big question is – just how far out are you planning or comfortable to shoot. I am a 150 out to 200 yrd shooter when it comes to killing. 150-200 yrds, those period correct scopes are just fine. 

Dan

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January 19, 2025 - 12:10 am
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Right now I want to use a scope off one of my other modern rifles.  I want to see how accurate I can get at 100 yds.  Once the project is over I plan to put a period correct scope on it.

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January 19, 2025 - 12:25 am
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Chuck said
I need to buy a set of scope bases for my 1952 Model 70.  I want a set that will accommodate modern 30 mm rings and maybe in different heights so the scope won’t hit the barrel.  The objective lens diameter could be as much as 50 mm. 

What would you recommend?  Remember I’m an antique guy.

  

Hey, Chuck — when I first read your post my reaction was, “How can he be an antique guy and want 30mm rings and a syrup bucket size scope on a nice, low comb, Model 70?” 

Of course, like every other Model 70 fan, I have a mental image of its perfect form, in my case burned into my youthful brain by the early Fifties illustrated writings of Jack O’Connor and John Amber.  Back then, even as Biesen, Goens, Brownell et al. were lessening the drop and raising and straightening the comb of custom sporting rifles, the perceived state of the art scope for American big game rifles was a bright weatherproof 30mm objective  4X with sealed internal adjustments, mounted low over the bore on a sturdy steel rotary dovetail mount.  For those who did not trust scopes,  the only really trustworthy, detachable side-mount was the heavy, expensive and ugly, double lever Griffin & Howe, to be used alternately with a removable staff receiver sight. 

So my first thought about your 1952 Model 70 with a big, high-mounted scope was it would look like a Great Dane humping a Chihuahua. 

That was before I recalled the photo of Jack O’ Connor’s Biesen-stocked Model 70 varmint rifle, a 22-250 surmounted with a trombone length 20X Unertl suspended in big gimble mounts. 

So a relatively sleek 30mm Leupold 6.5 -20X with a 50mm objective, mounted on, say, a Redfield Sr. base, would look as antique as a reasonable [if there are any] Winchester Model 70 collector could wish. Go for the high polish version of the base and similarly finished 30mm rings from the maker of your choice. Matte finish says “not period.”

And post more pix. My go to Model 70 is a 1950 Super Grade ought six wearing only a Lyman 48 WJS with hunter knobs and a Redfield Sourdough up front. In ultimate need, I’ve been known to remove the staff and temporarily install a Leupold M3X in low Redfield rings on a two piece base.  Because I can’t hit anything over 150 yards away reliably, the WJS works fine except in low light. 

- Bill 

 

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January 19, 2025 - 12:31 am
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Adding to the height issue my stock is a Monte Carlo and I have a fat face.

Yes, I am an antique collector but I am a long range target shooter too. I used to hunt but now I sit at a bench and see how small I can get my groups.  I have shot at 1,820 yds but at 1,000 yds I can actually hit what I aim at quite often.  Here is an older picture of my 308.  I recently have made some changes but I haven’t taken a picture.

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January 19, 2025 - 2:54 am
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My ears and whiskers! You are a broad-gauged Winchester collector, to set up a ’52 Model 70 standard style for long range target shooting. I admire your curiosity. 

Have you ever read what used to be the benchrester’s Bible, Warren Page’s The Accurate rifle? It was written at a time when some target/varmint shooters still were relying on the 1898 Mauser action or its near derivatives, when building rifles for accuracy work. Given the limitations of a relatively flexible action, Page wrote quite a bit about bedding and tuning. Maybe all out of date but Page did not fall off a watermelon truck and was one of the leading lights in the early postwar benchrest competition movement. 

I’ve never handled, much less shot, a “platform” rifle like yours and had always assumed they were relatively heavy. Yet your .308 has a muzzle brake.

Now, I’ve owned and used a couple of light SAKO “Forester-length” .308 hunting rifles and found the recoil fairly sharp — acceptable for Whitetail hunting but too distracting for long sessions at the bench. May I assume your .308 is braked for that reason?

A final thought: does your rifle have its original factory bedding and forearm tension screw? Do you have any plan to experiment with altered barrel tension? 

I expect a lot of us look forward to seeing what your Model 70 can do and to what it responds best. 

- Bill 

 

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January 19, 2025 - 5:05 pm
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I don’t plan on turning the Model 70 into a target rifle.  I want to put a more powerful scope on it for awhile just so I can really see where my aim point is.  I am curious what my target style loading techniques may do to this rifle but I am not real happy with the bore.  I have not taken the rifle apart to see if it is bedded.  I did check the screws for tightness.  The front one was not tight and I realize this may have been on purpose.  I did not tighten the one near the mag well because I’ve read this could cause a bind.  The back screw was already tight.

I need to take another picture of the 308.  It has had many changes since this picture was taken.  It weighs about 19 lbs and if I do my part there is no muzzle jump.  I use a ski pod in the front and a special bag in the rear to allow the rifle to track straight back. Rubber feet on a bipod inhibits the rearward movement causing jump.  So does improper holding and body position.  My trigger is set at 8 oz.  I have a tuner/break on the end of the barrel.  The tuner will change the barrel harmonics for fine tuning as the weather changes.

I have not read that book but I did read one by Tony Boyer.  He has the most short range bench rest wins of all time by a very large margin.  But, even some of his techniques are a bit outdated now.  I also follow Erik Cortina.  World Champion F Class shooter who shoots on the US Team.  He is one of a few that teaches us to load and shoot better.  He does not tell us all of the Team secrets though.  These guys shoot matches at 1000 yds.  Sometimes at 800, 900 and 1000 yds.  Team USA took first in S. Africa in 2023 and took first at Bisley England last year. 

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January 19, 2025 - 8:45 pm
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My limited understanding of benchrest is technique is still very important, even though advances in rifle and cartridge  technology continue to make new record groups possible. Because you’ve devoted your time and study to the subject, few would be better suited to exploring the accuracy limits of a presumably stock 1952 Model 70 .270.  

I think that should be of interest to collectors of the model because yours is arguably the prototypical Pre-64 Model 70 for surviving WACA members, an ever-decreasing number of whom were old enough to buy or be gifted one new, although, like me, some admired them in stores or their dad’s gun cabinet.  Well-kept pre-war guns were and are beautiful but not produced in huge numbers before Pearl Harbor. Heavily collected, not shot much these days. 

My own experience with the Pre-64 Model 70 is modest: I’ve owned 4, the 1950 Super Grade .30 Gov’t ’06, the 1956 Featherweight ’06 I’ve written about and sold, a 1951 standard grade .270 I’ve recently sold, and a 1948 standard grade restocked with a 1954 Super Grade stock and rebarreled with a 26″ heavy SAKO .22-250 barrel. 

What I noticed about the three wearing original barrels was two of them showed evidence of bedding work and shot very well indeed, the 1950 being a real bell ringer. The 1951 .270 had, as far as I could tell, an unmodified barrel channel. It was the least accurate of the three, in my hands anyway.  I did not handload for any of them; these were rifles I hunted with. By “accurate”, I mean the best of them would shoot 1.25″ 3-shot 100 yard groups from a cold, dry barrel. The .270 would manage 1.75″.  Bore condition may have had something to do with it.  The .270 had a dark spot the size of a pencil point several inches back from the muzzle I presumed to be a pit or rough spot. No bore scope. It was a accurate enough for my purposes but it was cosmetically the least attractive of the three and I sent it down the road.  

The Featherweight had no tension screw. The 1950 Super Grade does and it responds to altering the tension. Best for me has been finger, not gorilla, tight and then backed off a turn. 

From my extensive readings and modest experience,  standard weight Model 70 rifles of the early Fifties were sensitive to barrel bedding and tension, out of the box.  You might want to at least disassemble your rifle and examine the bedding, just to establish a baseline.  I agree with you about not overtightening the forward action screw. The action frame will bend under too much torque on that screw. 

Best of luck and keep posting. I can’t do any shooting right now and depend on my friends for vicarious excitement.

- Bill 

 

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January 20, 2025 - 5:21 pm
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Zebulon, I posted a better picture of my target rifle but I guess the post got deleted?

So I will try again.  

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January 20, 2025 - 8:07 pm
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Hello Winchester experts, 

   Have questions regarding Van Orden sniper rifle that I own. When I bought the rifle thought was that it was a match rifle made for competitive shooting , then after research found it was a Van Orden sniper rifle. The rifle was equipped with unertl 8x scope that colonel Van Orden offered for purchase with his rifles. Luckily the unertl is engraved with usmc and is one of the early scopes used on the M1903A1  and the M70 USMC heavy barrel team. 
In Researching I purchased the 5 volume Death From Afar , Chandler & Chandler and referenced the serial number to original owner who was a multiple times winner at camp Perry , in 1957 national bolt championship,1958 presidents match that president Eisenhower congratulated him , and 1959 won the national bolt match rifle again. 
Mr Bell purchased the rifle in 1952 , the match stock looks quite used all metal looks well taken care of. He purchased another M70 Van Orden in 1956 a year before he won at Perry.
My thoughts are Mr Bell sent many rounds through this rifle with intent of getting ready for championship shooting. 
My question is does the Success and history of a previous owner increase the value of firearm. 
It has been fun researching , thinking it’s time for someone else to enjoy this rifle and hopefully display the rifle. 
Have known idea what Van Orden M70  value might be and also other M70 I own as they are all med heavy barrel guns. Submit it

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January 20, 2025 - 9:50 pm
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Hi Daniel-

Congrats!!! Laugh Is your rifle S/N 170966 or 364530, the two VO Snipers listed in Chandler’s Volume 1 as purchased by Ammon Bell of Hummelstown PA?  I assume the former from the purchase date you posted above???  Is it in the Marksman style stock, which Evaluators Ltd. called their “Special Target” or in the uncheckered special dimension Standard stock, which they called their “Sniper”?  I’d love to see s couple photos of it if you have them…

If the rifle is unaltered from the original owner, it may be a very pricey piece…  In the RIA Premier Auction last Spring (or maybe it was December 2023), there were THREE authentic VO Sniper’s (by serial number)…  I think at least one had a replaced stock, but all genuine VO rifles…  IIRC in that auction they brought between $17K and $22K each!!!  I think that’s CRAZY, but seems to indicate that these guns are highly sought after…  The priciest one came with a USMC marked 20X Lyman STS, and in the 1950s Evaluators Ltd. was recommending (and the teams were using) the Lyman STS on their match rifles.  The 8X USMC scope on your rifle probably (???) doesn’t “belong to it”, at least I doubt that’s what Bell had on it shooting at Camp Perry, but it alone is a $4K item.  I do not know what such a rifle would sell for in the “Real World” but at a major auction it might bring be a lot…

Major alterations, abuse, etc. would impact the value, of course, but any bona fide VO Sniper is worth some serious money, and the connection to a winner at Perry sure can’t hurt…  

FWIW… I have posted this before, but I’ll attach pics of my VO Sniper.  S/N 351439, sold to Victor Dawson of Silver Spring, MD…  This was a civilian sale, and has a civilian Lyman 20X STS on it.  Not one of the USMC team scopes…

VO-Sniper-SN-351439-copy.jpgImage Enlarger

Best,

Lou

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January 20, 2025 - 11:12 pm
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Chuck said
Zebulon, I posted a better picture of my target rifle but I guess the post got deleted?

So I will try again.  

Impact-308-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Impact-308-Rear-View-1.jpgImage Enlarger

  

Much obliged, that is a very interesting piece.  So the muzzle device is more for tuning barrel frequency than recoil attenuation. 

For his first serious centerfire rifle, years ago I bought my son a Browning A-bolt .25/06 (the model with matte finished metal and glass stock) equipped with the company’s B.O.S.S. device. It required some experimentation but it really did work to tighten groups. Young son needed .250-3000 equivalent loads to start, working up to .25 Roberts, etc — an undersold benefit of the old .25/06.  

I’d guess you live near the high desert where long range target work is practicable.  If I were a bit younger, I could see myself getting interested in the sport, although North Central Texas is mighty populous and unoccupied real estate is increasingly seldom. 

- Bill 

 

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January 21, 2025 - 5:39 am
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Chuck said
Right now I want to use a scope off one of my other modern rifles.  I want to see how accurate I can get at 100 yds.  Once the project is over I plan to put a period correct scope on it.

  

Chuck;

After hunting with this rifle for many years, I decided to semi-retire the rifle and install a period-correct scope. Attached is what I chose. A Lyman Alaskan 2 1/2 X 7/8″ scope mounted with Stith mounts20240109_145035.jpgImage Enlarger. The rifle is a 1948 Model 70 257 caliber transition model. The recoil pad was on it when bought.

Not for everybody but I thought that it came together nicely.

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January 21, 2025 - 1:00 pm
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That Stith Streamline mount is close to bulletproof. I had one on my 1951 Model 70.270 holding a Weaver K3.  

Your 257 is my cup of tea, for certain.

Like you, when I took the 270 hunting, though, my aging eyes wanted something brighter for pre-dawn and dusk. The old K3 couldn’t get it done. 

But it looked great on the gun. 

- Bill 

 

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January 21, 2025 - 5:10 pm
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Win61 said

Chuck said

Right now I want to use a scope off one of my other modern rifles.  I want to see how accurate I can get at 100 yds.  Once the project is over I plan to put a period correct scope on it.

  

Chuck;

After hunting with this rifle for many years, I decided to semi-retire the rifle and install a period-correct scope. Attached is what I chose. A Lyman Alaskan 2 1/2 X 7/8″ scope mounted with Stith mounts20240109_145035.jpgImage Enlarger. The rifle is a 1948 Model 70 257 caliber transition model. The recoil pad was on it when bought.

Not for everybody but I thought that it came together nicely.

  

Thank you for the pic. 

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January 21, 2025 - 5:25 pm
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Zebulon said

Chuck said

Zebulon, I posted a better picture of my target rifle but I guess the post got deleted?

So I will try again.  

Impact-308-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Impact-308-Rear-View-1.jpgImage Enlarger

  

Much obliged, that is a very interesting piece.  So the muzzle device is more for tuning barrel frequency than recoil attenuation. 

  

The muzzle device is a muzzle break for recoil reduction but it also has a tuner on the end of it too that changes the harmonics of the barrel.  Tuners and the proper operation of the tuner is quite a project.  Those that have them figured out most times don’t want to give away their competitive advantage.  It takes a lot of firings at different ambient temperatures to get them figured out.  Match shooters have the data and when they go to a match they test at a similar previous condition to figure out where to set it for the match. Basically if the temp goes down, turn one direction and if it goes up, turn the other direction.  The tuners can go several revolution and going in one direction will eventually find the best spot.  It’s all about bullet exit timing in relation to the speed and position of the barrel at the time of bullet exit.  If you plot your groups they will plot as a sine wave.

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January 21, 2025 - 5:54 pm
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If ambient air temp makes a difference in tuning, does density altitude matter as well?  I know it affects marginally stabilized bullets. 

Here’s a question you can help.me with, please. As you can see, my son’s B.O.SS.S.has a perforated section that serves as a brake. Browning offers a replacement part (user installable) that is unperforated and thus much quieter. Do you think eliminating the brake would adversely affect the tuning function of the device? Because BACO offers the part I would guess not but would value your opinion. 

 

20181220_081938.jpgImage Enlarger20181220_082307.jpgImage Enlarger

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- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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January 22, 2025 - 5:28 am
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Zebulon said
If ambient air temp makes a difference in tuning, does density altitude matter as well?  I know it affects marginally stabilized bullets. 

Here’s a question you can help.me with, please. As you can see, my son’s B.O.SS.S.has a perforated section that serves as a brake. Browning offers a replacement part (user installable) that is unperforated and thus much quieter. Do you think eliminating the brake would adversely affect the tuning function of the device? Because BACO offers the part I would guess not but would value your opinion. 

 

20181220_081938.jpgImage Enlarger20181220_082307.jpgImage Enlarger

  

Bill-

 

I can’t directly answer your question but I know some tuners used on precision .22’s have no muzzle brake features. I tested a tuned BR 22 with ammo it was tuned for and the results were….boring. Ragged hole groups (.21 C-C IIRC) @50 yards using my sandbags and rest. IE nothing fancy. As most of you know I’m not a precision shooter. The concept works if you take the time to make it work. Not my cup of tea but the concept is indeed sound. I think the brake feature is a separate function but like you I wonder if the two functions of the BOSS are independent. I don’t think most BOSS owners ever took the time to push the envelope of this accessory.

 

Mike

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