Bert,

If I’m correct, we can assume the following.

It is a Benet inside-primed cartridge head stamped C 11 F 80. The ‘C’ identifies this as a carbine cartridge. The ’11 80′ indicates the month and year it was made, this one being November 1880. The ‘F’ indicates that the cartridge was made at the Frankford Arsenal. 

The only thing throwing me is the bullet diameter and case length. To small to be 45 Gov., and so I’m assuming a .40-41 caliber cartridge offered pre-1880?

Hope that helps. Here is a couple of websites that have supporting information, but doesn’t nail down this exact specific cartridge.

https://www.cartridgecollector.net/45-70-government

https://www.oldammo.com/november04.htm

Sincerely,

Maverick

Bert H. said
I am not aware of a rim fire 45-70 cartridge.  To the best of my knowledge, it has always been a center fire cartridge.  

Your cartridge is very similar to the one I have (minus the large heavy bullet).

Bert  

This is not a rim fire.  It has an internal primer.  Frankford Arsenal used these until around 1882.  They then loaded them with boxer primers.  I have been looking for these in 45-70 carbine to put in my Mills belt to display with my 2nd model Hotchkiss military carbine.  The carbines are actually 45-55s. 

I will ask my military collector friend about your cartridge.  Isn’t a 45-70 case 2.1″?

Bert and others,  I first learned of inside primed .45 Gov’t cartridges in 1973.  I was still a bachelor, and sometimes bored of watching the walls in the BOQ.  I heard there was an area on the west side of Ft. Huachuca, AZ, where you could find old cartridge cases.  Apparently the area was used by the old cavalry units to have practice skirmishes, as the ground was littered with .45 Gov’t BLANK cartridge cases, plus a few odd multi pistol caliber application blanks with a significant necked down area.  Those were marked .45 WEB if I recall.  I found one blank that had not been used, but the paper wad had deteriorated and let the original black powder fall out as I picked it up.  I kept most of those I picked up–and one is an inside primed case.  I was able to see the inside disk that is perforated in several locations about the rim, and it is crimped into the case as the example Bert is showing.  I am only guessing here, but I suspect in the early days it was easier to fill the head with priming, then insert and crimp in the anvil as a disk.  For Bert only–another topic we can discuss at Cody  IF EITHER of us remember!  Tim

One thing to remember is that Frankford Arsenal only loaded ammunition for the Military (Springfield Armory) .  I called my friend.  He says the only way to get an accurate measurement of the bullet diameter is to pull the bullet.  In his opinion this is a 45-55 cartridge.  He is not aware of any experimental cartridges.  All you are seeing is the curvature of the bullet after the crimp groove.

Bert,

I think there’s your answer and you’ve solved the mystery. All the cartridge collectors I talk with read the head stamp “Counter-Clockwise”, but it really doesn’t matter, making it C 11 F 80. Therefore a C=Carbine 11=November F=Frankford Arsenal 80=1880. So it being identical to a 45-70 cartridge make sense and it being for the Carbine means it would have the 55 grains powder loading.

Which is what I thought initially, but was thrown by the .386 bullet dia.

Sincerely,

Maverick

deerhunter said
Here’s a similar cartridge at Ward’s Auction:

https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=5043

Don  

This cartridge is not the same as what we have been talking about.  It is much rarer due to the RAISED head stamp.

steff said

You are absolutely right.

I have two boxes of .45 Colt from Frankfort Arsenal from 1880 whose cartridges also have the inside priming. 

 

 

Stefan  

Frankford Arsenal just like the 45-70’s the 45 Colt used the Benet primers until 1882/3 when they started using boxer primers.

Very cool box.  I have a US Calvary Colt that these would go nicely with.  I have a sealed box dated December 1873.