Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Rim Fire cartridge identity
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10819
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
November 19, 2021 - 4:44 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Do any of you recognize the rim fire cartridge on the left?  I have one of these in my collection, and I do not know what it is.

The case length is 2.1″

Rim Diam = .602

Bullet Diam approx. = .386

Ctg. base is marked “C” at 12 o’clock, “F” at 6 o’clock. “11” at 9 o’clock, and “80” at 3 o’clock.

024.jpgImage Enlarger

Bert 

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1577
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
November 19, 2021 - 7:30 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert,

If I’m correct, we can assume the following.

It is a Benet inside-primed cartridge head stamped C 11 F 80. The ‘C’ identifies this as a carbine cartridge. The ’11 80′ indicates the month and year it was made, this one being November 1880. The ‘F’ indicates that the cartridge was made at the Frankford Arsenal. 

The only thing throwing me is the bullet diameter and case length. To small to be 45 Gov., and so I’m assuming a .40-41 caliber cartridge offered pre-1880?

Hope that helps. Here is a couple of websites that have supporting information, but doesn’t nail down this exact specific cartridge.

https://www.cartridgecollector.net/45-70-government

https://www.oldammo.com/november04.htm

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 201
Member Since:
September 11, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
November 19, 2021 - 9:18 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I also have a cartridge with internal primer that is very similar to yours, but as blank.

The headstamp is R 6 F 81.

 

P1300148_BS.jpgImage EnlargerP1300149_S.jpgImage EnlargerP1300150_o.jpgImage Enlarger

 

I think mine is an early 45-70.

 

Stefan

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10819
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
November 19, 2021 - 1:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I am not aware of a rim fire 45-70 cartridge.  To the best of my knowledge, it has always been a center fire cartridge.  

Your cartridge is very similar to the one I have (minus the large heavy bullet).

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6355
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
November 19, 2021 - 2:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Herschel Logan’s book doesn’t include Bert’s .38 but it does illustrate a gov’t produced .40, which shows the Ordnance Dept was experimenting with calibers smaller than .45.  He goes on to say that many other experimental cartridges were developed during this time, so, since it has the FA headstamp, it stands to reason this must be one of them.  

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4596
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
November 19, 2021 - 5:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
I am not aware of a rim fire 45-70 cartridge.  To the best of my knowledge, it has always been a center fire cartridge.  

Your cartridge is very similar to the one I have (minus the large heavy bullet).

Bert  

This is not a rim fire.  It has an internal primer.  Frankford Arsenal used these until around 1882.  They then loaded them with boxer primers.  I have been looking for these in 45-70 carbine to put in my Mills belt to display with my 2nd model Hotchkiss military carbine.  The carbines are actually 45-55s. 

I will ask my military collector friend about your cartridge.  Isn’t a 45-70 case 2.1″?

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6355
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
November 19, 2021 - 6:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Chuck said

This is not a rim fire.  It has an internal primer.  Frankford Arsenal used these until around 1882.  They then loaded them with boxer primers.  I have been looking for these in 45-70 carbine to put in my Mills belt to display with my 2nd model Hotchkiss military carbine.  The carbines are actually 45-55s. 

  There were several different inside-primed designs produced by FA, which is strange considering that Benet had designed an outside-primed reloadable case in 1866, preceeding his inside-primed design of 1868.  Maybe the inside-primed cases were cheaper to mfg.?  

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 579
Member Since:
September 19, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
November 19, 2021 - 7:18 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert and others,  I first learned of inside primed .45 Gov’t cartridges in 1973.  I was still a bachelor, and sometimes bored of watching the walls in the BOQ.  I heard there was an area on the west side of Ft. Huachuca, AZ, where you could find old cartridge cases.  Apparently the area was used by the old cavalry units to have practice skirmishes, as the ground was littered with .45 Gov’t BLANK cartridge cases, plus a few odd multi pistol caliber application blanks with a significant necked down area.  Those were marked .45 WEB if I recall.  I found one blank that had not been used, but the paper wad had deteriorated and let the original black powder fall out as I picked it up.  I kept most of those I picked up–and one is an inside primed case.  I was able to see the inside disk that is perforated in several locations about the rim, and it is crimped into the case as the example Bert is showing.  I am only guessing here, but I suspect in the early days it was easier to fill the head with priming, then insert and crimp in the anvil as a disk.  For Bert only–another topic we can discuss at Cody  IF EITHER of us remember!  TimLaugh

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1577
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
November 19, 2021 - 7:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Well, the .386 Bullet Dia matches the .41 Long Colt, but the case length is too long. So that’s why I’d imagine it is for a .40-.41 caliber cartridge. 

Maybe a 40-50 S.S. or a 40-70 S.S. type cartridge but even those don’t match up with the rest of the description. Rest assured its from a cartridge that was developed prior to November 1880.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4596
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
November 19, 2021 - 10:59 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

One thing to remember is that Frankford Arsenal only loaded ammunition for the Military (Springfield Armory) .  I called my friend.  He says the only way to get an accurate measurement of the bullet diameter is to pull the bullet.  In his opinion this is a 45-55 cartridge.  He is not aware of any experimental cartridges.  All you are seeing is the curvature of the bullet after the crimp groove.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6355
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
November 20, 2021 - 12:10 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said
  He is not aware of any experimental cartridges. 

If he doesn’t know THAT (which is well known & indisputable), I’d seriously question his authority as an ammo expert.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10819
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
November 20, 2021 - 12:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

OK, I can see and understand that it is an inside primed cartridge.  However, I do not believe that it is a Frankford Arsenal (FA) manufactured cartridge.  Unlike the one that Stefan posted a picture of, the cartridge I have is stamped “C  80  F  11”.  

I remeasured the bullet diameter at the case mount and found that it is actually .433.

I then compared it too an original W.R.A.Co. 45-70 405 cartridge, and other than primer style, the two cartridges are nearly identical in all dimensional measurements.  Accordingly, I now believe that it is an inside primed 45-70 cartridge manufactured in November, 1880.  The only mystery is who was “C A” ?

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6355
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
November 20, 2021 - 1:24 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
The only mystery is who was “C A” ?

Bert  

“C” for carbine (55 g.), but where are you getting the “A.”

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10819
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
November 20, 2021 - 1:36 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

clarence said

“C” for carbine (55 g.), but where are you getting the “A.”  

Sorry, I meant to type “F”

I found this while researching and it is exactly what I have… 4iQ8BSg.jpg (2414×3490) (imgur.com)

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4596
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
November 20, 2021 - 11:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Chuck said
  He is not aware of any experimental cartridges. 

If he doesn’t know THAT (which is well known & indisputable), I’d seriously question his authority as an ammo expert.  

Picky picky.  There was no Frankford Arsenal ammo made with this headstamp other than the 45-55.  If you could ever meet him you would be in awe of his military knowledge.  He has a photographic memory and has been collecting since the 60’s.  He has authored and co authored a few books.  His name is Craigh Riesch.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1577
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
November 21, 2021 - 3:19 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert,

I think there’s your answer and you’ve solved the mystery. All the cartridge collectors I talk with read the head stamp “Counter-Clockwise”, but it really doesn’t matter, making it C 11 F 80. Therefore a C=Carbine 11=November F=Frankford Arsenal 80=1880. So it being identical to a 45-70 cartridge make sense and it being for the Carbine means it would have the 55 grains powder loading.

Which is what I thought initially, but was thrown by the .386 bullet dia.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Troutdale, OR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1907
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
November 21, 2021 - 4:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Here’s a similar cartridge at Ward’s Auction:

https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=5043

Don

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4596
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
November 21, 2021 - 5:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

deerhunter said
Here’s a similar cartridge at Ward’s Auction:

https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=5043

Don  

This cartridge is not the same as what we have been talking about.  It is much rarer due to the RAISED head stamp.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 201
Member Since:
September 11, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
November 27, 2021 - 10:45 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said

This is not a rim fire.  It has an internal primer.  Frankford Arsenal used these until around 1882.  They then loaded them with boxer primers.  I have been looking for these in 45-70 carbine to put in my Mills belt to display with my 2nd model Hotchkiss military carbine.  The carbines are actually 45-55s. 

I will ask my military collector friend about your cartridge.  Isn’t a 45-70 case 2.1″?  

You are absolutely right.

I have two boxes of .45 Colt from Frankfort Arsenal from 1880 whose cartridges also have the inside priming. 

 

P1300651_kl.jpgImage EnlargerP1300652_kl.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Stefan

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4596
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
November 28, 2021 - 5:18 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

steff said

You are absolutely right.

I have two boxes of .45 Colt from Frankfort Arsenal from 1880 whose cartridges also have the inside priming. 

 

P1300651_kl.jpgImage EnlargerP1300652_kl.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Stefan  

Frankford Arsenal just like the 45-70’s the 45 Colt used the Benet primers until 1882/3 when they started using boxer primers.

Very cool box.  I have a US Calvary Colt that these would go nicely with.  I have a sealed box dated December 1873.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 132
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6355
TXGunNut: 5015
Chuck: 4596
1873man: 4317
steve004: 4244
Big Larry: 2338
twobit: 2293
mrcvs: 1723
TR: 1722
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12739
Posts: 110942

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1759
Members: 8842
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation