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February 14, 2021 - 2:21 am
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https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=5010

Dan Shuey says this is one of three versions of this cartridge.  His book shows the other 2.

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February 14, 2021 - 3:17 pm
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[email protected] said
Chuck,

I find this very interesting. I don’t remember of ever reading or possibly seeing a Winchester trials gun, Musket, even in a Museum! Has any one here ever seen or heard of this info. before? Thanks  

Some Model 1868 and later 75 trial rifles/muskets were apparently built to use the .46 O.F. Winchester cartridge.  These trial rifles are illustrated in Herbert Houze’s book “The Winchester Model 1876 Rifle.”  According to Houze, the design that later became the Model 1876 predated that of the Model 1873.  

Houze says that the design that became the Model 1876 was delayed for almost eight years due to the slow development of a reliable, reloadable large bore cartridge.  The .46 O.F.W. cartridge was apparently one of the attempts to develop the large bore cartridge.

The sample deluxe Model 75 was the rifle exhibited at the Centennial exhibition in Philadelphia during 1876.

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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February 14, 2021 - 4:58 pm
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Folks,  I displayed my 1876s at Cody and then at the NRA convention in Dallas.  One of the items displayed was my 1868 musket, serial number 18, and I had a .46 OFW cartridge displayed with it.  Relatively few picked up on that.  The cartridge i displayed was one of the two piece cartridges, where the one on auction now is a single, deep drawn case.  I have posted info on here in the past, and seems I even posted the patent information on the cartridge.  It was not until I had my display that the museum knew the caliber used in the prototype muskets.  Seems the details are overlooked or forgotten by folks both here and at the museum.  The two piece brass cased version is more common, and there are about 12 known to cartridge collectors.  The one piece, deep drawn cased versions are fewer in number.  I was an early bidder on the one at Wards Auction until the price got beyond what I was willing to pay.  As further info, if you look into the book on the 1876 by Houze, you will see serial number 18 pictured, plus he comments that the 1868 musket led to development of both the 1873 and the 1876.  Tim

PS.  When the 1868 prototype was in the Winchester collection, it was identified as “.45 caliber”.  The bullet measures over .46 and slightly under .47 and is sometimes known as a .47 OFW.  

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February 14, 2021 - 5:15 pm
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Yes, Tim, thanks to you I know a little about this oddball cartridge. Any idea where the bidding is headed? 

 

Mike

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February 14, 2021 - 5:18 pm
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Tim, Dan told me that the 2 piece is harder to find too.  He said the last 46 he saw for sale sold for $3000.  I am one that did not notice your gun at Cody even though we talked at your table for a few minutes. At least I don’t remember.

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February 14, 2021 - 5:21 pm
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Mike and others, I would imagine this cartridge to sell in the $3000 to $3500 range, unless a couple of SERIOUS cartridge collectors decide they need it to fill out their collection!  But then I am NOT a SERIOUS cartridge collector!  Ray disagrees with my evaluation on that last point, however.  TimLaugh

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February 14, 2021 - 5:24 pm
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Chuck, I don’t recall the year I displayed the rifles!  In a few more years I might not remember much about it or the cartridge either!  Come by and we can talk again this coming July.  I might be able to put a face with your name.  Names and I don’t get along very well.  TimSurprised

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February 14, 2021 - 8:19 pm
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Folks,  I am going to try to attach photos of the patent awarded to O. F. Winchester.  Plus a photo of my two piece cartridge in .46 or .47 OFW.  Bear with me if this doesn’t work well, or takes more than one reply.  TimIMG_1227.JPGImage EnlargerPatent-60814-1.jpgImage EnlargerPatent-60814-2.jpgImage Enlarger

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February 14, 2021 - 8:37 pm
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Thanks, Tim. Was trying to locate your earlier posts on the subject. Very interesting letter! I never understood until reading about this cartridge how involved O F Winchester was in the more obscure workings of his company. I always imagined him as a “big picture” guy but he apparently he was much more involved. 

 

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February 14, 2021 - 8:47 pm
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Mike, I was very surprised to find his hand so directly on this cartridge as well.  By the way, I need to provide credit to folks who helped me at the time.  Dan Shuey had some info on the patent, which allowed me to find it (his data card had a typo from White Labs that initially led to a folding table.  But the timeframe was correct, so easy to figure the typo and reverse the digits.)   Then, Ray Giles allowed me to buy his cartridge at the price he had paid for it years before.  He did so because he knew it was going to be part of a display and benefit more than just me.  Dan had listed a number of collectors he thought might have one.  I called one who was clearly into some dementia, so that was a dead end.  Another no longer had one, and Ray initially declined to sell.  A month or two later he called me back and asked if I would be interested, etc.  Great people.  But then most in our community are!  Tim  PS.  The efforts to assure the cartridge did not chain fire in the tubular magazine were rather involved and likely would not have lent themselves to mass production, in my limited knowledge.  

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February 14, 2021 - 9:22 pm
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tim tomlinson said
Folks,  I am going to try to attach photos of the patent awarded to O. F. Winchester.  Plus a photo of my two piece cartridge in .46 or .47 OFW.  Bear with me if this doesn’t work well, or takes more than one reply.  TimIMG_1227.JPGImage EnlargerPatent-60814-1.jpgImage EnlargerPatent-60814-2.jpgImage Enlarger  

Well I’ll be… it was a bald-faced lie when I was told that you can’t teach an old dog a new trick!  Well done Mr. Fruit!!

Your Buddy… HanesLaugh

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February 15, 2021 - 1:49 am
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Tim, you’ve done your research. When can we expect an article in the “Collector”?

 

Mike

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February 15, 2021 - 4:30 am
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Mr. Hanes, indeed I can on occasion learn something new!  Don’t count on it frequently, tho!  Fruit.

Mike,  I have been ruminating on putting together an article for the “Collector” to provide new visibility to the model 1868 musket plus the .46 OFW cartridge.  The hold up is getting and providing good enough photos!  That becomes a very painful process for me!  Brad and nephew Rob make it seem so easy and painless…..Laugh  The musket is a treasure of experimental ideas, several of which did not work out.  Would need good close ups of those (unlikely to figure a non destructive way to get the smooth bored portion ahead of the chamber photographed, tho.  It is only indirectly observed with a tight cleaning patch and rod.  About 8 inches or so of smooth bore just ahead of the chamber.  Bore is nearly pristine so not caused by corrosion.  I do have a bore scope but it would need be inserted from the breech and I do not intend to disassemble the musket.  And too short to get there from the muzzle.  Tim.

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February 15, 2021 - 6:56 pm
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Tim-

I understand your disability, my talent with a camera is limited as well but I don’t think you should let that hold you back on the rest of the article. I’m sure someone can be found to take the pictures. I don’t know if better equipment will help, my iPhone has a better camera than the digital camera I paid good money for not too long ago. I need to work on the camera thing, it seems the  best way to sell vintage firearms these days is on auction sites with GOOD pictures. The “Collector” photos set a very high bar with quality not always found in big magazines, let alone a relatively small club magazine. 

 

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February 15, 2021 - 8:30 pm
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Tim, find a gun dealer or auction house and see if they will take a couple of pictures for you?  I have had the auction house photographer take some for me.

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February 15, 2021 - 9:57 pm
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Chuck, That is a potential idea.  Rock Island does good photos and they are but 103 miles from my driveway.  BTW for you and for at least Mike, it isn’t the quality of the camera per se.  It is getting all the possible settings set correctly, then getting the lighting correct.  I have done it a time or two, but it is an all day process for one good photo!  Somehow I forget what I did previously so it takes forever to find how to disable the flash, for instance, etc.  Rob has had the good sense a time or two to say “good enough” when he knew the camera was about to go into orbit.  CryTim

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