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November 7, 2015
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The subject of provenance comes up from time to time but other than Cody inquiries little is said about actively seeking information about a rifle after a purchase. There’s a good chance that the seller has no idea of an item’s history so there’s a slim chance it may have an interesting, documented history.
My first question is; do any of you try to research a Winchester’s past other than a Cody inquiry? If so, have you ever discovered a Winchester with a role in history?
Mike
Mike,
The only Winchester I have with “provenance” is a model 94 S.F.P.D. marked carbine with the below letter. Mine is the second serial number on the list.
deerhunter said
Mike,The only Winchester I have with “provenance” is a model 94 S.F.P.D. marked carbine with the below letter. Mine is the second serial number on the list.
I have one of the S.F.P.D. marked carbines, and mine is the fifth serial number on the same list.
I also have a model 94 carbine from N&W Rlwy
Al
Provenance involves documentation that formally ties a gun – by serial number, to a specific person or other entity … famous, infamous, or not.
Of course there are various levels of provenance … from; ” the story” that came with the gun … to notarized letters discussing the guns known family history. One can also include documentation like what can be found in the National Archives of history, Springfield Research Service (SRS), or documentation that can be gleaned from vintage inscriptions and other writings that may be on the gun …as well as interpretations of the same by known experts in that field … as part of provenance.
All of the above can have levels of relevance and importance in the world of provenance.
Provenance is really cool and really fun to collect. I find immense enjoyment in this aspect of gun collecting… as it is totally fascinating.
Long Spur Hollow
Al:
And both lovely guns I might add…………….
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
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TXGunNut said
The subject of provenance comes up from time to time but other than Cody inquiries little is said about actively seeking information about a rifle after a purchase. There’s a good chance that the seller has no idea of an item’s history so there’s a slim chance it may have an interesting, documented history.My first question is; do any of you try to research a Winchester’s past other than a Cody inquiry? If so, have you ever discovered a Winchester with a role in history?
Mike
Every gun I own I research, if it comes with any history I start there. Then I Google s/n, past auctions, is it pictured in a gun book, Springfield Research, Ancestry.Com if I have a name, Jim Gorden’s survey, research any markings, and ask my old friends if they have any ideas. I start a binder, save everything and add to it over the years. Pictures of the person with the gun, notarized letters from the family, document rarity, past magazine articles, all add up to provenance. The binder stays with the gun if sold. About half of my guns have provenance that adds significant value, some were purchased with it and added to, others were pure luck. T/R
Rick Hill said
Al:And both lovely guns I might add…………….
They sure are Rick.
Mike;
If you want to see what it’s like to try to get Historical Provenance on a Winchester, then try doing what I did. If that gets you interested enough in what I’m refuring to then read my article in the Winchester Collector, the summer edition of 2006. I describe what took about 14 years of research into the probable history of an 1866 carbine that was involved in two major historical events in the last quarter of the 19th century. If you’re willing to go as far as I did, you’ll probably find out much more about your Winchesters than a Cody letter can ever possibly tell you. Good luck !!
Apache ( ya ta hey )
November 7, 2015
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apache said
Mike;If you want to see what it’s like to try to get Historical Provenance on a Winchester, then try doing what I did. If that gets you interested enough in what I’m refuring to then read my article in the Winchester Collector, the summer edition of 2006. I describe what took about 14 years of research into the probable history of an 1866 carbine that was involved in two major historical events in the last quarter of the 19th century. If you’re willing to go as far as I did, you’ll probably find out much more about your Winchesters than a Cody letter can ever possibly tell you. Good luck !!
Apache ( ya ta hey )
Excellent article, thanks! I’ve been doing a fair bit of reading about this time period and I feel pretty sure I’ve read at least some excerpts of your article but have not read the entire article until tonight. It was very enjoyable and informative. I have a circa 1880 1873 Springfield rifle that possibly crossed paths with your 1866 but I haven’t bothered to research it other than a production date table.
Mike
In the mid 70’s, I had a old friend who was an antique dealer. Always looking for good furniture, he found an old couple in Deer Lodge (Montana) who had several nice pieces for sale. He took his old Ford van and drove 225 miles to look at the stuff. While there, they showed him an 1873 Winchester rifle. It was a heavier than standard octagon barreled .44 with full mag. Nothing special about the gun really, but it was in pretty nice condition, lots of blue, excellent mechanically and the bore was fabulous. He called and asked if I was interested and I said yes, without even seeing it. Turns out, I did buy the rifle for $300.00. After looking it over, I see a small ranch brand nicely burned into the butt stock where the butt plate meets the comb. Didn’t think much of it until I recieved my Time Life book “The Ranchers”. Looking through the book, I see a bunch of brands used by the Pioneer Cattle Company. The brand on my rifle was used on cattle and left hip of their horse herd. The owner of the ranch was Granville Stuart and the president at the time was Conrad Cohrs. The Grant/Cohrs ranch is located in Deer Lodge. Rifle was shipped September 10, 1888.
win4575, That’s great history from an area of great western history. When I walk a gun show I look for gun’s with history attached or implied. Many dealers do not place a value on provenance, you buy the gun and get the history free. It sounds like you got the history free. T/R
I once purchased a Colt SAA Ainsworth Calvary that had a 1986 letter from a Texas ranching family that had moved to NM about 1910 or so. The guy from the orig Tex/NM family wrote a nice letter when he sold the gun to fund education for his kids. The “provenance letter” basically was saying it was his Great Grandads gun and had been in the family continuously since about 1879. He also had some good stories and lore about his relatives… and believe me – these boys were part of the culture of the times.
On a whim about 3 or 4 years ago… I started researching the family name for information on them. Guess what?! The guy that sold the gun in 1986 is still alive and now in his late 80s. I have had lots of conversations with this man and his wife, including stopping in at their home in very rural NM for a visit last year while traveling through the area.
I now have augmented the guns “history folder” with new notarized letters from the Tex/NM family that includes new stories and family lore. I also now have copies of many family photos.
Besides the fact it is an unmolested Ainsworth …this gun has some great history from a family that had continuously owned it for 107 years.
Home run!
Long Spur Hollow
Finding the history of a firearm you acquire, is every collectors dream. Here’s another story about a Colt that just blew me away. I have a dear friend who worked for many years at the Cody museum, researching serial numbers. We’ve spent years talking Winchesters. One day he showed me a 5 1/2″ single action that he bought in 1950 for $35.00. He sent the gun to Colt, where they fitted all new internal parts. At his request, Colt then refinished the pistol, which was blued and cased. He owned the gun for 66 years, when in 2016 he decided to letter it. Turns out this pistol was shipped in 1904 to Major Gordon W. Lillie, aka, Pawnee Bill. Talk about a home run!!!
If the gun could talk! Some guns you just know they have been there done that. Keep them and hunt the history. Usually they are well used and affordable until they talk. T/R
Per T/R – “If the gun could talk”…
The often used expression above is regularly heard when we look at a “been there – done that” gun … that is not in high collector grade condition. Even makes many guys get a “far off stare” in their eye when hold it and think about it.
In honest fact … sometimes these pieces are not only talking … they are telling a story!
– One just needs to “read and/or interpret” what is there.
Long Spur Hollow
I bought an 1887 shotgun out of the Charlie Schreiner, YO Ranch collection with no provenance. I was able to track the gun back to the person that sold the gun to Charlie. The gun comes from the Peeler family and was owned by 2 Peelers (father then son) that were both Texas Rangers. The son was Graves Peeler.
To All;
In the many years that I’ve collected firearms, from my first 1917 Enfield manufactured by Remington to my last acquisition, a Colt 1862 Police, I’ve found that what I enjoy most is a firearm’s story. As we all know, it seems that the Collecting Community is divided into two groups. Group 1 only looks for a firearm that looks as though it just left the factory. These guns, be they Winchesters, Colts or whatever are perfect, and just what this type of Collector is looking for. The story that they tell, ” I spent the last 150 years in the closet, and was only fired once.” Great history, don’t you think? Group 2 collectors, of which I am one, doesn’t much care that the Winchester or Colt has very little finish left, or that it a little banged up. Group 2 collectors are interested in the story it may be able to tell. To me, and it’s only my opinion, the tale told by the “High Conditioned” piece, which is ” I spent the last 150 years safely locked up in the closet.” doesn’t do it. That’s not what they were made for, and have no story to tell regardless of who’s closet it was locked up in.
Apache ( ya ta hey )
November 7, 2015
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Hard to argue with your position, Apache. I only have a couple of very high condition Winchesters, they were bought mostly as investments as they have no soul or history. When I pick up a “70% gun” I know that gun has likely spent more time in the field than I ever will, I can only imagine the men (or women) who’ve been custodians of this rifle before me and the hunts they enjoyed. I have, on occasion, taken these rifles hunting and the feeling is difficult to describe. Most go to the range and with few exceptions shoot quite well. I know these guns make poor investments but I find them hard to resist, it’s almost as if the souls of hunters of another generation (or two, maybe three) live on in this gun. I have a hard time passing up a gun like this, but I’m doing better.
Cold, hard truth is that I’m trying to finance my collecting hobby by buying investment grade Winchesters and selling them for a profit and that’s best accomplished with 80% or better guns or guns with a documented history. It’s not enough that the firearm in question was owned by a famous person, for me it needs to have a documented role in history. Case in point is the many weapons sold by surviving combatants and descendants of the Hatfields and McCoys that were manufactured and purchased long after the feud.
Another cold, hard truth is that only a relative few weapons have a documented history after leaving the factory and most of them are probably military since Uncle Sam and other governments tend to keep records of anything with a serial number. I’ll be exploiting that data source someday as I have one rifle that likely has a bit of a dark history in the Indian Wars.
I’ll admit that this thread was probably inspired by a book Robert Moser wrote about the guns of the Texas Rangers. I’ve met Robert and I’ve known one of the Rangers he wrote about and read a fair bit about others. Unfortunately this book may be seen as an effort to document weapons in the author’s collection, as many seem to be.
But, I digress. The posts above about the provenance of some very interesting weapons are truly wonderful, thanks for taking the time to relate the stories!
Mike
Many who have posted on this topic, have made VERY solid points for both sides. I myself, started collecting just about any condition I could afford. Back then, a nice ’73 was $125.00 and a 1st Gen Colt SA could be bought for $35.00. Certainly these weren’t mint guns, but they were real and untouched. I loved it. Then a close friend told be when I was 15 years old, “buy the best you can afford”. As time went by, I did that too. I have a nice collection of very high condition Winchesters and Colts, because they’re fun and beautiful to look at. But, I still have a number of guns that are worn (not beat up). These are the guns that really tell the story of the frontier and the people who used them. These guns just fascinate me. I am an avid shooter and reload for almost every caliber I have. Shooting an 1873 1st model carbine or an 1876 in .50 Express, is an unbelievable experience. I can just feel the “old west” come alive every time I pull the trigger.
Mike and Rick I like your approach. Luckily I was told early on to buy unmolested guns and the best I could afford. Over the years I have been able to trade up. I still don’t have any closet queens. I have some nice guns that I shoot occasionally. I prefer honest guns with some wear. Now with that said I wouldn’t turn down a higher condition gun if it were at a really good price. Other than the 1887 I found I do have an 1895 that was one of two in a shipment. I recently found out who own’s the other gun in the shipment. This other gun is inscribed. So maybe this person owned my gun too??
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