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Is there data that shows how many of these were made? If so how many in Super Grade and Standard Grade?
Factory records indicate 7,197 Standard carbines or 1.24% of total M70 production were manufactured by Winchester from 1937 thru the mid-1950 barrel clean up years. Chamberings…initially 22 Hornet, .250-3000 SAV, 257 Roberts, 270 WCF, 7M/M (Mauser),.30-06 and later 35 Remington.
Super Grade Carbines were never catalogued by Winchester. Although there are numerous examples out there all SG Carbines are to a degree suspect.
That said, I own 270 SG Carbine that is one of my favorite guns
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Ted, thanks. I have no idea why my friend wants this info? He does have a handful of Super Grades.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Chuck-
I don’t think that there is a PRECISE answer available to your question.
Roger Rule, in Table 3-8 of his book, states that there were EXACTLY 7,197 Carbines manufactured, equating to 1.24% of production. The thing is Roger does not cite his source(s) of information, i.e. the “factory records” that Ted is referencing… Maybe Ted’s seen them??? Is Roger counting only M70 Carbines made from 1936-1947 when they were cataloged (yes, Ted, they are in the 1947 catalog) or does it include the barrel clean-up Carbines made as late as 1954??? So Roger’s number is probably close enough for to get a sense of overall “rarity”, but without those source “records” I consider them an estimate… Like George Madis’ production numbers… George didn’t often cite sources either…
I have not (yet anyway) found ANY factory documentation of pre-war or transition M70 production recorded by STYLE, e.g. Carbine versus Standard rifle versus Super Grade, etc. The few pre-war documents in the McCracken Library digital files that I have found are annual reports by either Model or Caliber… Some are “Yearly Net Orders Received” by caliber, some are “Total Orders Received by Model, some are “Total Production“… For the few years where all three sets of figures are available, they vary widely. For amusement, look at this table I put together from “factory records”… I can post the source documents or you can look them up in MS-20 in the McCracken Library.
As for the mythical “Super Grade Carbine”… They were never cataloged (no assigned Catalog Symbols) and would have been “Special Order” guns, i.e. individual orders processed separately from regular production orders. The same table in Rule’s book says there were EXACTLY 13,283 “Specials” processed between 1936 and 1963. Of course this includes ALL individually processed special orders AND receivers maintained for R&R parts inventory. How many of these were “Super Grade Carbines”??? Probably a few… My GUESS is that more Super Grade Carbines have been put together outside the factory than were assembled within. So without some kind of believable “provenance” they must all be considered suspect…
Like Ted, I too have a “Super Grade Carbine” built (receiver) in 1948. This one even has a “SUPER” marked barrel, which Mr. Rule says was done for a brief time in during the transition period to mark barrels that had specially lapped rifling. I like this gun (nice caliber for a Carbine), but I doubt it’s authenticity… 
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Pre War production on the Model 70 is interesting. For example I have a .220 Swift National Match gun. The seial number is 53255. Jesse Bennett did a search for me stating that the SN was aplied on 10-10-1942. The barrel date is also 1942. But, I have a feeling that the rifle was put together after the War. The National Match stock is from the Transition era, it has a type two safety. With the Pre War receiver. The reciever has the clip feeding cut out, and has one hole for a scope mount in front of the clip feeding cut out. Has the 48 WB peep sight with the Lyman Adjustable front site globe. The gun also features the correct scope blocks. With what appears to be the original sling that came with the rifle. So, all in all the gun looks correct. But like a Super Grade Carbine it will be suspect. Louis, it is written that they only made 17 .220 Swifts in 1942. Would this rifle be included if it was not completed until after the War?
November 5, 2014
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Hi Bob-
This should interest you… The National Match page from the 1941 WWSG&A full catalog. Note at the very bottom, where it says “Other standard calibers furnished at no extra charge (except 375 H&H Magnum cannot be furnished)”… One could (almost) argue that your 220 SWIFT National Match was a “cataloged special order”… 
I have seen a few National Match rifles in non-standard calibers (besides Wayne’s documented 264 WIN MAGNUM and 338 WIN MAGNUM Nat Match rifles) including 300 H&H MAGNUM and 7 M/M. Not sure if they were legit or not, but the 7 M/M was interesting b/c it also had a non-standard 26-inch barrel…
What I’ve wondered is WHAT Winchester would actually provide if someone ordered a National Match in something other than 30 GOV’T’06. As you know, the cataloged 30-06 National Match barrels had that special low front sight ramp and were D&T for a 0.470″ tall scope block… The easiest thing for Winchester to do when filling such an order would have been to simply drop a regular barreled action (with standard front sight ramp and not D&T) into a National Match stock. Your rifle, which has the scope block sounds interesting… That’s what I’d hope the factory would have done.
FWIW… The availability of Bull Guns in other calibers was also advertised in the WWSG&A full catalog with the statement “Prices in other standard calibers furnished on application” on the Bull Gun page. So you COULD order a Bull Gun in 22 HORNET if you wanted one, but it would cost you extra since they’d have to make a special 28-inch extra heavy barrel…
As far as the catalog summary… The way I INTERPRET it is that Winchester received orders for only (17) M70s in 220 SWIFT in 1942. How many 220 SWIFTs they manufactured, and in what styles, is something I have not found recorded (so far at least)… They might have had (17) 220 SWIFTs in the right style in inventory and made (0) in 1942… Or they might have left the (17) orders unfilled???
What I THINK is that a 220 SWIFT National Match would have been a Special Order as indicated in the 1941 catalog above. As such the order would have been processed as a single gun assembly order (not a regular production work order) and would not have been counted at all in the “Yearly Net Orders Received” summary, either for 1942 or 1946 as the report didn’t include “Specials” (this is stated in the document). Rather, it would have been classified as a “Special”. “Specials” were only included in the “Orders Received” by Model report that isn’t broken down by caliber.
See what you can make of these pages… That’s all I got…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis, Thank you for the interesting information! In the 40 plus years of collecting Model 70s. I have seen one other National Match rifle chambered for .220 Swift. I believe if memory seves me correctly that it was a mid 1950s gun. It looked OK from the pictures. I remember that it did have scope blocks that appeared factory, and that the front sight was slotted for a hood. These non caliber .30’06 National Match rifles are few, and far between. It would be interesting to see if they just came with the standard front sight. Or did any have the shorter non slotted front sight found on the .30’06 National Match rifle?
November 5, 2014
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Hi Bob-
The one I’d like to see (own) would be the National Match in 308 WIN. These, along with a Target Model in 308 WIN, were specifically offered on Special Order in 1953-1954 only. Read the “fine print” on this page from the 1953 Winchester Firearms catalog…
If there were ever a National Match in something other than 30-06 that came with the low Nat Match front sight ramp, I’d expect it to be one of these. There is one pictured in Dean Whitaker’s book (photo 6-7) and I think MAYBE it has the low ramp, but the angle of the photo leaves me uncertain. Since Winchester never routinely made standard contour barrels in 308 WIN (myriad fakes notwithstanding), 308 WIN Nat Match barrels would have been made in a special limited run. So why not put the Nat Match ramp on them???
As the Nat Match in other calibers listed as available on special order early on were not higher priced, I suspect they were just Standard Rifles (regular ramp) dropped into a Nat Match stock. Maybe with the scope block added, like yours.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Always had a thing for the Carbines
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Louis Luttrell said
The one I’d like to see (own) would be the National Match in 308 WIN. These, along with a Target Model in 308 WIN, were specifically offered on Special Order in 1953-1954 only. Read the “fine print” on this page from the 1953 Winchester Firearms catalog…
Lou
The one I would get all excited over would be a Bull Gun in .308 Winchester. I even have saved away a decent Bull Gun stock, with the thought that I might one day make one from available parts. I would never try to pass it off as anything other than my own creation. I just think it would be cool sitting next to my Bull Guns in 30-06 and 300 H&H. I have a Post 63 Winchester Model 70 Ultra Match in .308, and it is insanely accurate. It comes cllose to being a Pre-64 Bull Gun, but no cigar.
BRP
November 5, 2014
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Hi BRP-
Winchester certainly did make some 308 WIN Bull Guns, but as far as I know (unlike the Nat Match and Target Model) they were never specifically cataloged as a Special Order option. They also made a few in 300 WIN MAGNUM that weren’t cataloged.
Several 308 WIN Bull Guns were made as part of the AAMU collaboration in 1956 and other military R&D projects. Did you see this one in the Spring Richmond Auction? Not sure about the checkering on the stock, but the solid bottom single shot action R&D is legit. It got kind of pricey…
As for other “oddball” Bull Guns, besides 308 WIN and 300 WIN MAGNUM, I think there are legit ones in 22 HORNET (!!!), 243 WIN, 250 SAVAGE, 257 ROBERTS, and one (claimed by Roger Rule to be legit) in 300 SAVAGE. Below is one of the 250 SAVAGE Bull Guns (s/n 223195), which is pictured in Whitaker’s book from Ken Reynold’s collection. There’s another one of these serial numbered close to it. The two are identical down to the never seen style 3C roll marked caliber reading “250 SAVAGE –” instead of “250-3000 SAV”.
You never know what may turn up (and even be legit)…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Thank you, Lou!
The $9500 price tag on that USA AMU 308 rifle would be just the start of the expense had I bought it, as it would then be necessary for me to hire a divorce lawyer, find a new place to live, etc… But it sure is a sweet rifle.
BRP
Louis Luttrell said
Hi BRP-Winchester certainly did make some 308 WIN Bull Guns, but as far as I know (unlike the Nat Match and Target Model) they were never specifically cataloged as a Special Order option. They also made a few in 300 WIN MAGNUM that weren’t cataloged.
Several 308 WIN Bull Guns were made as part of the AAMU collaboration in 1956 and other military R&D projects. Did you see this one in the Spring Richmond Auction? Not sure about the checkering on the stock, but the solid bottom single shot action R&D is legit. It got kind of pricey…
As for other “oddball” Bull Guns, besides 308 WIN and 300 WIN MAGNUM, I think there are legit ones in 22 HORNET (!!!), 243 WIN, 250 SAVAGE, 257 ROBERTS, and one (claimed by Roger Rule to be legit) in 300 SAVAGE. Below is one of the 250 SAVAGE Bull Guns (s/n 223195), which is pictured in Whitaker’s book from Ken Reynold’s collection. There’s another one of these serial numbered close to it. The two are identical down to the never seen style 3C roll marked caliber reading “250 SAVAGE –” instead of “250-3000 SAV”.
You never know what may turn up (and even be legit)…
Lou
I have attached a couple of photos of the 1956 Olympic/AMU bull barrel rifles Lou references. All 10 were chambered in .308.
With respect to the Richmond Auction rifle which Lou mentions, from the information I have, the checkering is not original to the rifle and much of the description is inaccurate. Everything else about it is original.
Coincidentally to the ongoing discussion here, the auction rifle(499841) is consecutively serial numbered to the lone .308 National Match (499842) configured single shot. The front sight on this .308 NM is not low profile, but is without the sight cover slots. However this barrel is unique in that its 26” vs the standard 24” and it has no dovetail cut in the barrel boss as on the production rifles.
Ned
November 5, 2014
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Thanks Ned!!!
Those are awesome guns!!! Did you finish your monograph yet??? I want to buy a copy…
Your pictures clearly show that Winchester made Style 3C roll dies (one-piece Standard style not Featherweight) in 308 WIN. Something the myriad fakers out there cannot get right…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Thanks Ned!!!Those are awesome guns!!!
Your pictures clearly show that Winchester made Style 3C roll dies (one-piece Standard style not Featherweight) in 308 WIN. Something the myriad fakers out there cannot get right…
Best,
Lou
Thank you Lou,
I am still inching along with the project.
I do need to make a correction to my post. My memory came back to me after I posted. At least one of the 10 Olympics got chambered in 30.06, at least temporarily.
Ned
