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Bert H. said
clarence said
Seems strange to me, a customer unwilling or unable to adjust his own sights–esp. for a gun ordered with target sights.
Strange or not, it happened quite frequently. There are also numerous ledger record entries that additionally state “Target sent”, indicating the customer wanted to see the actual target that was used and group size.
The following is the exact entry in the ledger record for Single Shot S/N 108371;
“Focus at 25 yds. Aperature to show ¼ in white around 2 in target at that distance. Target with Peters ammo sent in by customer. Front Telescope Base extra long same as sample“
Bert
Wanting to see a test target for evidence of a rifle’s accuracy is a good idea; some makes of target rifles & pistols included a test target as a regular part of the package.
If the aperture in question was the one that could be installed in the A & B scopes, that also makes sense…because in scopes as well as metallic sights, the diameter of the aperture should be adjusted to the diameter of the bull, or vice versa. The aperture reticle was rare, & the triangle even rarer, though they were sold separately (& cheap) & could be installed by the user himself.
This customer who provided the ammo he’d be using (at the time Peters held most match records) obviously knew what he was doing. The 25-yd focus probably means he was shooting in one of the indoor clubs so popular before WWI.
Bert H. said
clarence said
Seems strange to me, a customer unwilling or unable to adjust his own sights–esp. for a gun ordered with target sights.
Strange or not, it happened quite frequently. There are also numerous ledger record entries that additionally state “Target sent”, indicating the customer wanted to see the actual target that was used and group size.
The following is the exact entry in the ledger record for Single Shot S/N 108371;
“Focus at 25 yds. Aperature to show ¼ in white around 2 in target at that distance. Target with Peters ammo sent in by customer. Front Telescope Base extra long same as sample“
This attached picture is a copy of the ledger record entry for S/N 107973
Just in case that you are not able to read the ledger entry, it states;
“Target at 50-100-200 yds mark graduations on Rear st in yards“
Also read the ledger entry for S/N 107977…
“Beach Comb Frt St. Ly (Lyman) Comb. Rear with cup disc. (No. 2), Flat top (rear st). To be used on 150 yd range on 3 in Bulls.“
That particular customer apparently wanted the rifle sighted at 150 yards.
S/N 107978… Customer ordered an A5 Telescope with a triangular reticule.
Hopefully you are seeing a pattern here… when it came to the Single Shot Rifles, many customers were very specific about what they wanted!
Bert
Fascinating ledger information – I’ve never seen anything quite like it. Thanks Bert!
Steve,
I have been studying the ledger records for the Single Shot for a very long time now, and I still find them fascinating! There is no other Model of Winchester that can be compared to it. There are many thousands of very unique ledger entries, and absolutely nothing surprises me when I find something new & odd. When I discovered the ledger page I posted a partial copy of, I purposely made a copy of it for future reference. It is far from being the only ledger page that is similar!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Steve,I have been studying the ledger records for the Single Shot for a very long time now, and I still find them fascinating! There is no other Model of Winchester that can be compared to it. There are many thousands of very unique ledger entries, and absolutely nothing surprises me when I find something new & odd. When I discovered the ledger page I posted a partial copy of, I purposely made a copy of it for future reference. It is far from being the only ledger page that is similar!
Bert
Too bad these records didn’t identify where the guns were shipped, as it might then have been possible to figure out the customer, & check that name against published match results. I realize cramming in more info would have been difficult, but Colt & S&W usually did it.
Bert H. said
Jeff,
Winchester did not use that nomenclature for the Wind Gauge Globe sight until well after the Single Shot Rifle had gone out of production. Take note of the fact that several of the Models were lined out on that drawing… because they no longer existed. Additionally, there were more than just (2) apertures that were provided with the sight. I seem to remember that there were at least six (or more).
Bert
Hi Bert,
I will always defer to your expertise when it comes to the 1885 but I am a little confused, the initial drawing with the “69 A” nomenclature is dated October 8, 1913 on the back. I thought that was before the Single Shot Rifle was out of production? The drawing model strikeout lines were added to the drawing on 11/13/30 per the revision list.
Regarding the aperture sizes you are correct, there were more, I should have listed the product changes listed on the next page, specifically where the aperture sizes were changed and the dates they were changed. An example is C/P 2754 which states the aperture for the 69 A was changed from .077″ to .067″ (special order) on 11/14/13 (again, before the Single Shot was out of production).
Am I misinterpreting something here?
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
Hi Bert,
I will always defer to your expertise when it comes to the 1885 but I am a little confused, the initial drawing with the “69 A” nomenclature is dated October 8, 1913 on the back. I thought that was before the Single Shot Rifle was out of production? The drawing model strikeout lines were added to the drawing on 11/13/30 per the revision list.
Regarding the aperture sizes you are correct, there were more, I should have listed the product changes listed on the next page, specifically where the aperture sizes were changed and the dates they were changed. An example is C/P 2754 which states the aperture for the 69 A was changed from .077″ to .067″ (special order) on 11/14/13 (again, before the Single Shot was out of production).
Am I misinterpreting something here?
Best Regards,
October 1913 was indeed before the Single Shot went out of production, but not by very much. Winchester discontinued all variations of the Single Shot except the Model 87 (3rd variation Winder Musket) in March, 1918. Up through the 1918 catalog, the Wind Gauge globe was not referred to as a “No. 69 A” sight. The early production cased sets with a Wind gauge globe sight contained a sizable selection of aperture inserts.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi Bert,
I never take anything the sales department put in the catalogs or the draftsmen put on the drawings as gospel as I have seen significant errors in both over the years. In this case, the draftsmen in 1913 are calling it a 69 A and the sales staff are still calling it by the old name. That happened frequently with many parts. I don’t really care either way, my point in my initial post was simply to point out that it did in fact have a name (at whatever point in time) other than “Globe Sight” since I thought we were trying to be accurate and detail oriented.
I apologize if I confused anyone by posting the Winchester drawing of the Globe Sight/69 A from 1913 as part of the discussion.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
Hi Bert,I never take anything the sales department put in the catalogs or the draftsmen put on the drawings as gospel as I have seen significant errors in both over the years. In this case, the draftsmen in 1913 are calling it a 69 A and the sales staff are still calling it by the old name. That happened frequently with many parts. I don’t really care either way, my point in my initial post was simply to point out that it did in fact have a name (at whatever point in time) other than “Globe Sight” since I thought we were trying to be accurate and detail oriented.
I apologize if I confused anyone by posting the Winchester drawing of the Globe Sight/69 A from 1913 as part of the discussion.
Best Regards,
Jeff,
We (including me) always enjoy your detailed inputs to the discussions that take place here on the WACA forum! The Winchester world is full of “confusing” pieces of information… no need to apologize for posting it. Personally, it helps improve the discussions!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Jeff,
We (including me) always enjoy your detailed inputs to the discussions that take place here on the WACA forum! The Winchester world is full of “confusing” pieces of information… no need to apologize for posting it. Personally, it helps improve the discussions!
Bert
Ditto for me. I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for guys like Bert, Jeff, Clarence, Bob, Maverick, Steve, Chuck, Michael, Mike, TxGunNut, Mark, Big Larry, Gary, Henry,…heck everyone on here ?
Thanks guys, I just want to make sure I don’t post erroneous information.
I learn lots from all of you since I am primarily a rimfire guy and have no depth of knowledge in the centerfire variants.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
While on this discussion of the globe sight: I have never understood why all pictures and drawings show the windage adjustment knob on the left with the calibration markings facing the shooter. Yet, everyone insists the the adjusting knob should be on the right and the adjustment calibrations on the muzzle end. Please explain this? Thanks, RDB
Roger,
Winchester most certainly installed the Wind Gauge Globe sight with the windage knob on the right-hand side.
I believe that the reason they illustrated it in their catalogs with the knob on the left was simply to showcase the graduations markings on its front face.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
rogertherelic said
While on this discussion of the globe sight: I have never understood why all pictures and drawings show the windage adjustment knob on the left with the calibration markings facing the shooter. Yet, everyone insists the the adjusting knob should be on the right and the adjustment calibrations on the muzzle end. Please explain this? Thanks, RDB
Win catalog illustrations I’ve seen don’t show it mounted, merely a front-end view of the sight by itself. I’d guess a right hand adjustment made it more convenient for most shooters. Also, the index marks would be easier to read from the muzzle end. Would have to be mounted that way if a spirit level was attached. Anyway it’s mounted, they’re a pain to adjust, & I’m baffled why any target shooter would put up with one after windage adjustable tang sights became available in 1888–both Carver’s & Soule’s.
That being said, would mean it is the only sight in the Winchester Catalogs shown illustrated in the “reverse”. Correct? RDB
rogertherelic said
While on this discussion of the globe sight: I have never understood why all pictures and drawings show the windage adjustment knob on the left with the calibration markings facing the shooter. Yet, everyone insists the the adjusting knob should be on the right and the adjustment calibrations on the muzzle end. Please explain this? Thanks, RDB
I know I would mount mine where I could see the graduations. Doesn’t make any sense to me to have to dismount the gun and stare at the muzzle.
Chuck said
I know I would mount mine where I could see the graduations. Doesn’t make any sense to me to have to dismount the gun and stare at the muzzle.
Never tried doing this, but doubt you could see them clearly enough from a shooting position, without exceptionally sharp vision.
Just a note of interest: The sight base has to be installed from the right to left in the barrel dovetail and the sight adjustment knob will not allow this. The sight base would have to be separated from the globe to install the base in the barrel dovetail. Then reassembled. This may be the simple explanation. Easier installation. “No disassembly required”. 
RDB
rogertherelic said
Just a note of interest: The sight base has to be installed from the right to left in the barrel dovetail and the sight adjustment knob will not allow this. The sight base would have to be separated from the globe to install the base in the barrel dovetail. Then reassembled. This may be the simple explanation. Easier installation. “No disassembly required”.
Mystery solved!
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
rogertherelic said
Just a note of interest: The sight base has to be installed from the right to left in the barrel dovetail and the sight adjustment knob will not allow this. The sight base would have to be separated from the globe to install the base in the barrel dovetail. Then reassembled. This may be the simple explanation. Easier installation. “No disassembly required”.
Roger, I never thought to check that. I have a couple of the Lyman #8’s. I’ll have to check them out. But I still think having to stare down the bore of the rifle just doesn’t make sense.
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