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Not Winchester Checking. Someone is going to be disappointed
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December 3, 2023 - 12:38 am
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The checkering pattern on this model 1892 is not Winchester original.

https://www.wardscollectibles.com/auction/A94/viewitem.php?item=4024

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December 3, 2023 - 12:45 am
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Yep. One of Don Grove’s guns.  He should know better…

https://www.thewinchestergrove.com/1892/640xxx.htm

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December 3, 2023 - 1:20 am
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deerhunter said
Yep. One of Don Grove’s guns.  He should know better…

https://www.thewinchestergrove.com/1892/640xxx.htm

  

Yes he should.

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December 3, 2023 - 1:32 am
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tionesta1 said

deerhunter said

Yep. One of Don Grove’s guns.  He should know better…

https://www.thewinchestergrove.com/1892/640xxx.htm

  

Yes he should.  

He probably did, and decided to unload it at auction because of that.  It avoids explaining.

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December 3, 2023 - 2:09 am
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Disappointed?  Why?  The buyer saw what he was buying, & paid less than the upper estimate.  I’d be more concerned about the washed-out lettering on the brl, but the buyer saw that, too. 

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December 3, 2023 - 4:00 am
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Note– Rifle has a reserve so probable did not sell.

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December 3, 2023 - 4:18 am
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Win61 said
Note– Rifle has a reserve so probable did not sell. 

The reserve should have been the starting bid of $3500.  But then, the unscrupulousness of the auction racket can’t be denied.

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December 3, 2023 - 4:31 am
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Nice looking gun, will appeal to a certain segment of today’s collectors. As discriminating collectors we may not understand this market segment but they are very real and they like to buy attractive guns. If they like old Winchesters they’re my kind of people!

 

 

Mike

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December 3, 2023 - 5:06 am
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For my own learning, it’s the “W” pattern on the forend that is not a factory pattern, yes? That’s what immediately stood out to me at my early stages in this game 🙂

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December 3, 2023 - 3:06 pm
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Jeremy P said
For my own learning, it’s the “W” pattern on the forend that is not a factory pattern, yes? That’s what immediately stood out to me at my early stages in this game 🙂

  

Yes, and the potential high bidder may not even know that it is not factory original.

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December 3, 2023 - 3:17 pm
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TXGunNut said
Nice looking gun, will appeal to a certain segment of today’s collectors. As discriminating collectors we may not understand this market segment but they are very real and they like to buy attractive guns. If they like old Winchesters they’re my kind of people! 

I have trouble believing that it’s good for “discriminating collectors” (i.e., the ones who make the effort to study seriously the subjects of their interests) when “problem” guns sell for prices that don’t reflect whatever their shortcomings may be, because the buyers don’t know or care. 

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December 3, 2023 - 3:50 pm
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   If your a person that wants to impress your friends by hanging a gun like this above your fireplace, it works. If you want to impress yourself, you hang a battle worn Springfield trapdoor carbine in a serial number range that could have been at the Little Big Horn, it works. Your call, same money. T/R

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December 3, 2023 - 4:36 pm
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clarence said

TXGunNut said

Nice looking gun, will appeal to a certain segment of today’s collectors. As discriminating collectors we may not understand this market segment but they are very real and they like to buy attractive guns. If they like old Winchesters they’re my kind of people! 

I have trouble believing that it’s good for “discriminating collectors” (i.e., the ones who make the effort to study seriously the subjects of their interests) when “problem” guns sell for prices that don’t reflect whatever their shortcomings may be, because the buyers don’t know or care. 

  

Clarence-

I don’t pretend to understand this trend or agree with it but there’s no denying it. In most cases I believe they know the gun is not original, they just enjoy beautiful guns. The number of original specimens is finite and getting smaller every day. Guns like these can be made from lower condition guns or guns that are no longer in original condition. Yes, original guns are much more interesting but I must admit I enjoy looking at these fantasy guns.

 

Mike

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December 3, 2023 - 7:19 pm
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TXGunNut said

clarence said

TXGunNut said

Nice looking gun, will appeal to a certain segment of today’s collectors. As discriminating collectors we may not understand this market segment but they are very real and they like to buy attractive guns. If they like old Winchesters they’re my kind of people! 

I have trouble believing that it’s good for “discriminating collectors” (i.e., the ones who make the effort to study seriously the subjects of their interests) when “problem” guns sell for prices that don’t reflect whatever their shortcomings may be, because the buyers don’t know or care. 

  

Clarence-

I don’t pretend to understand this trend or agree with it but there’s no denying it. In most cases I believe they know the gun is not original, they just enjoy beautiful guns. The number of original specimens is finite and getting smaller every day. Guns like these can be made from lower condition guns or guns that are no longer in original condition. Yes, original guns are much more interesting but I must admit I enjoy looking at these fantasy guns.

 

Mike

  

I think the buyer of this gun knew exactly what he was buying and paid accordingly. If you want a checkered 92 which is original and correct then you are going to have to pay for it. There is an antique I checkered gun in 32 WCF on Guns International which appears to be right and is priced accordingly (25 grand). The last H style checkered 92 in 44 WCF I remember selling was the Jim Cauthen gun which had a replaced hammer and was a little lacking in condition – it sold for $28,500.

What really disappoints me is the fact that a guy like Don Gove, who I have known for 40 years and who I have bought guns from, would advertise this gun on his own website and on Guns International, then send it to auction without noting problems, including the checkering not being correct. The non original checkering sticks out like a sore thumb. Don knows the gun is not right – with the exception of Merz he has probably had more Winchesters pass thru his hands than any other dealer. You new collectors have to educate yourself because dealers are not going to be totally forthcoming – Don did not say the gun was right in his advertisement but he did not fully disclose the gun either. In this case the price reflects the shortcomings of the gun and as TR said, the buyer may like the way it looks above his fireplace.

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December 3, 2023 - 7:34 pm
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 Burt,

 If you have seen Don lately or aware of his health condition you would understand. T/R

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December 4, 2023 - 1:32 am
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I don’t know, but $7000 seems like a LOT of money for a rifle with flaking to the receiver (1911 seems a little early for this as this is more commonplace on circa 1915 Winchesters) and in .25-20 for a “fantasy” Winchester.  I believe .25-20 is the most common caliber associated with Model 1892 rifles with features.  If this was in .44-40, it would be a whole different ballgame.

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December 4, 2023 - 2:05 am
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mrcvs said
I don’t know, but $7000 seems like a LOT of money for a rifle with flaking to the receiver…

Surprises me that this ugly blemish seems invisible to the folks calling it “beautiful.”  The more perfect the surrounding finish, the worse it looks by contrast, like the face of a beautiful woman disfigured by some terrible injury.  More “beautiful” to me is an evenly worn patina.

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December 4, 2023 - 2:03 pm
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It’s always buyer Beware! It’s evident the checkering is not factory on this gun here but the description at the bottom of the ad says “in all original condition”. Does Ward Auctions think it’s original? Does Ward auctions allow the seller to write his own description? Is Ward auctions responsible for false information/descriptions?

I know of guns that got a new caliber(barrel/tube swap) or a receiver change. It’s no surprise these guns “don’t letter” and if they’re not previously documented in a survey or have not been in circulation among collectors, most times nobody is the wiser. I think we’ve all had a surprise after buying a gun if you’ve been at this for any moderate length of time, & the risk is always there especially with on-line/auction purchases, but swapping a barrel or a receiver and then selling it as original knowing the difference is crookery & shameless. This gun here is evident to experienced collectors but, as the thread title says: Someone is going to be disappointed… unfortunately & most likely a new collector which is disappointing for all.       

 RickC 

   

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December 4, 2023 - 2:35 pm
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RickC said
It’s always buyer Beware! It’s evident the checkering is not factory on this gun here but the description at the bottom of the ad says “in all original condition”. Does Ward Auctions think it’s original? Does Ward auctions allow the seller to write his own description? Is Ward auctions responsible for false information/descriptions?

I know of guns in the past that got a new caliber(barrel/tube swap) or a receiver change. It’s no surprise these guns don’t letter and if they’re not previously documented in a survey or have not been in circulation among collectors, most times nobody is the wiser. I think we’ve all had a surprise after buying a gun if you’ve been at this for any moderate length of time, & the risk is always there especially with on-line/auction purchases, but swapping a barrel or a receiver and then selling it as original knowing the difference is crookery & shameless imo. This gun here is evident to experienced collectors but, as the thread title says: Someone is going to be disappointed… unfortunately & most likely a new collector which is disappointing for all.       

  

Exactly why I brought it up in the first place. Here you have a well experienced Seller, and an auction house who’s been dealing with Winchesters for an awful long time and the yet they describe it as:  “in all original condition & highly collectible”.  I believe they both know better and yet don’t care.  

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December 4, 2023 - 5:06 pm
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TXGunNut said
Nice looking gun, will appeal to a certain segment of today’s collectors. As discriminating collectors we may not understand this market segment but they are very real and they like to buy attractive guns. If they like old Winchesters they’re my kind of people!

 

“”Everybody to his own taste”, said the old woman as she kissed the cow'” — Townsend Whelen 
 

Mike

  

- Bill 

 

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