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Newbie inherited this rifle. 50-100-450 SN-69117
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SE Washington State of Upcoming Communism
Posts: 12
March 23, 2023 - 6:59 pm

1sp_QuotePost

Unk exactly what I have here. I’d appreciate some direction to go to establish what I have.

The barrel length is 25.25″ measuring from the front of the receiver to the end of the barrel.

None of the screws appear to ever been tampered with. I haven’t cleaned the rifle or barrel but it looks to have been fired at some time. 

The front site is stamped KING on the right side and looks like it’s copper.
There’s a stamp mark in front of the 50-100-450 (on the barrel ahead of the receiver) that looks to be PWL or PW1? It’s hard to read and inside an egg shaped oval.
There’s a stamp mark under the lever, Jan 20 1885 and a serial #69117 on the end of the tang.
The buttstock is curved with a steel plate for the shoulder. 

The rifle has some minor dings here & there on the wood and the barrel but nothing severe. The barrel is a full octagon. The weapon looks untouched.

Any help or pointers would be appreciated. I’m not finding much on an internet search. Unk how to post images, I tried but no luck.

 

Dan

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10608
March 24, 2023 - 1:38 am

2sp_QuotePost

Dan,

You have a Model 1886 Sporting Rifle that was manufactured in July 1892. The 50-100-450 was a derivative of the 50-110 Express cartridge, and it was a relatively uncommon cartridge chambering in the Model 1886. The proof mark stamp (a superposed “WP” in an oval) indicates that the barrel is not original to the rifle. If you want to know what the original caliber & configuration of this rifle was, the Cody Firearms Museum (CFM) records office can provide a factory letter (for a reasonable fee). The factory letter will contain all of the information as originally recorded in the Winchester factory records.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
SE Washington State of Upcoming Communism
Posts: 12
March 24, 2023 - 4:47 am

3sp_QuotePost

Bert, HUGE thank you for the info. I’ll track them (CFM) down & see what I can find out. It should be interesting..

I’d load some images but I can’t figure out how. Drag & drop doesn’t work and pointing the source to the file on my machine doesn’t fly either. I’d like people to be able to see what I’m holding onto.

 

Dan

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Posts: 10608
March 24, 2023 - 5:03 am

4sp_QuotePost

Dan Deckert said
Bert, HUGE thank you for the info. I’ll track them (CFM) down & see what I can find out. It should be interesting..

I’d load some images but I can’t figure out how. Drag & drop doesn’t work and pointing the source to the file on my machine doesn’t fly either. I’d like people to be able to see what I’m holding onto.

 

Dan

  

Dan,

Send the pictures to me – [email protected]

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 4097
March 24, 2023 - 6:35 pm

5sp_QuotePost

I would enjoy seeing photos.

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Posts: 4515
March 24, 2023 - 6:46 pm

6sp_QuotePost

Me too.  In original condition one of these are very expensive.

When you contact the Cody Firearms Museum and pay for the letter.  Ask them if they would email the worksheet to you.  If so you can have the info quicker.

https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/

Avatar
NY
Posts: 6150
March 24, 2023 - 6:53 pm

7sp_QuotePost

Chuck said
 In original condition one of these are very expensive. 

Even rebarreled, many would envy Dan, if gun is otherwise in decent condition.  To consider factory work of any kind “not original” defies common sense. 

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Posts: 4097
March 24, 2023 - 6:54 pm

8sp_QuotePost

Dan Deckert said
Unk exactly what I have here. I’d appreciate some direction to go to establish what I have.

The barrel length is 25.25″ measuring from the front of the receiver to the end of the barrel.

None of the screws appear to ever been tampered with. I haven’t cleaned the rifle or barrel but it looks to have been fired at some time. 

The front site is stamped KING on the right side and looks like it’s copper.

There’s a stamp mark in front of the 50-100-450 (on the barrel ahead of the receiver) that looks to be PWL or PW1? It’s hard to read and inside an egg shaped oval.

There’s a stamp mark under the lever, Jan 20 1885 and a serial #69117 on the end of the tang.

The buttstock is curved with a steel plate for the shoulder. 

The rifle has some minor dings here & there on the wood and the barrel but nothing severe. The barrel is a full octagon. The weapon looks untouched.

Any help or pointers would be appreciated. I’m not finding much on an internet search. Unk how to post images, I tried but no luck.

 

Dan

  

I am also curious about the family history of the rifle.  You mentioned you inherited it.  Father, Grandfather, Uncle?  Do you recall when the rifle was in use?  This is a big gun – what it was used for is intriguing.  This sounds like a great rifle to have been handed down.  

Avatar
SE Washington State of Upcoming Communism
Posts: 12
March 24, 2023 - 7:10 pm

9sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

Dan Deckert said

Bert, HUGE thank you for the info. I’ll track them (CFM) down & see what I can find out. It should be interesting..

I’d load some images but I can’t figure out how. Drag & drop doesn’t work and pointing the source to the file on my machine doesn’t fly either. I’d like people to be able to see what I’m holding onto.

 

Dan

  

Dan,

Send the pictures to me – [email protected]

Bert

  

Bert,

25 images headed your way in 5 separate emails…

Dan

Avatar
SE Washington State of Upcoming Communism
Posts: 12
March 24, 2023 - 7:22 pm

10sp_QuotePost

steve004 said

Dan Deckert said

Unk exactly what I have here. I’d appreciate some direction to go to establish what I have.

The barrel length is 25.25″ measuring from the front of the receiver to the end of the barrel.

None of the screws appear to ever been tampered with. I haven’t cleaned the rifle or barrel but it looks to have been fired at some time. 

The front site is stamped KING on the right side and looks like it’s copper.

There’s a stamp mark in front of the 50-100-450 (on the barrel ahead of the receiver) that looks to be PWL or PW1? It’s hard to read and inside an egg shaped oval.

There’s a stamp mark under the lever, Jan 20 1885 and a serial #69117 on the end of the tang.

The buttstock is curved with a steel plate for the shoulder. 

The rifle has some minor dings here & there on the wood and the barrel but nothing severe. The barrel is a full octagon. The weapon looks untouched.

Any help or pointers would be appreciated. I’m not finding much on an internet search. Unk how to post images, I tried but no luck.

Dan

I am also curious about the family history of the rifle.  You mentioned you inherited it.  Father, Grandfather, Uncle?  Do you recall when the rifle was in use?  This is a big gun – what it was used for is intriguing.  This sounds like a great rifle to have been handed down.  

  

The inherited is really convoluted. (long ugly story)I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they ask, or demand for it back. If they do, I’ll give it back just to avoid any issues I don’t want to be in the middle of…   [Read (long ugly story)..Frown

Money and property isn’t worth the hassle sometimes. I still need to get a hold of CFM but I’m up to my keister in alligators for a bit.

 

Dan

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Posts: 10608
March 24, 2023 - 7:28 pm

11sp_QuotePost

Dan,

Fortunately, you can honestly tell them that the rifle does not have much value.  As I mentioned in my response to the pictures you sent, the barrel is positively not original to the rifle, the caliber marking is not factory original, and the entire rifle has been non-professionally refinished.  If you would like me to post the pictures that you sent to me, just say the word.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
NY
Posts: 6150
March 24, 2023 - 7:43 pm

12sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
Dan,

Fortunately, you can honestly tell them that the rifle does not have much value.  As I mentioned in my response to the pictures you sent, the barrel is positively not original to the rifle, the caliber marking is not factory original, and the entire rifle has been non-professionally refinished. 

If it’s that bad, doesn’t seem worth blowing $75 for a letter that will merely confirm what you already told him.

Avatar
SE Washington State of Upcoming Communism
Posts: 12
March 25, 2023 - 4:50 am

13sp_QuotePost

Bert,

By all means, feel free to post the images. The more eyes on this the better IMHO. 
If the weapon is not what it seems, then the more people that know the better for future reference. Especially if it’s fake!

I was surprised (shocked would be a better response) to read your reply to say the least. But, I’m NOT even close to being knowledgeable about this firearm so I’ll take your word for it.

I’m still going to spend the $ to see what CFM has to say. Just because that gives me the grounds to tell any nay-sayers here’s the evidence so they can go eat a rock. I’m pretty sure everyone knows what I’m saying here. (IE: Money grubbing relatives Smile)

Clarence, $75.00 is a pittance to keep the ‘blood hounds’ off your back! Laugh Especially if they think a weapon is worth thousands of dollars… and it’s not in their hands anymore. LMAO…Cool

I’ll be on hold here until I can contact CFM. I can’t tell each of you how much I appreciate your input. When I have their answers, I’ll post the letter/info here. 
IF I can figure out how to post an image…Cry

 

Dan

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Posts: 10608
March 25, 2023 - 5:20 am

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SE Washington State of Upcoming Communism
Posts: 12
March 25, 2023 - 6:03 am

15sp_QuotePost

Thanks Bert.. Smile

Opinions are welcome.. Let the chips fall where they may..

ahhhhnd we’ll see what CFM has for input as well as soon as I can get the info to them & back.

Fake? Falsified? Crap? Scrap? Will be interesting to say the least..Laugh

If the weapon is fake, someone did one heck of a job IMHO. But fakers are thieves and here we are.. searching for answers.
A short trip behind the barn takes care of them. You know..just to give them a spanking.. Wink 

You’ve all been great & I extend my hearty thank you. When I get some answers from CFM, I’ll be back to let everyone know what’s up. I have a LOT more letters to write to my A$$hole legislators here in Wa. State hell bent on on trying to strip myself & others of our 2nd Amendment Constitutional Rights! Meaning I’m busy as all get out.

 

Dan

Avatar
NY
Posts: 6150
March 25, 2023 - 12:14 pm

16sp_QuotePost

Dan Deckert said
Fake? Falsified? Crap? Scrap? Will be interesting to say the least..Laugh

Only fake part of it appears to be the brl, & it’s a very poor fake at that.  Fake (i.e., non-factory) brls installed to increase value aren’t rare, but the idiot who made this one had no idea what the original markings should look like.  Otherwise, it’s not as bad as I expected: a typical modern re-blue job by a 3rd-rate gunsmith, such as still goes on in shade-tree shops all over the country for customers too ignorant to know any better.  No collector worthy of the name would be interested in it, but there are shooters who would, because it’s such a rare caliber, even for a fake.  Do a search for Cowboy Action Shooting; these are the folks who’d buy such a gun, at the right price.  What that price would be, Bert or someone else, could tell you.  This org. has its own web site, on which you could advertise the gun, & since it’s an antique, no legal restrictions apply.  

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Posts: 1656
March 25, 2023 - 12:58 pm

17sp_QuotePost

Yes, a poor reblue, and caliber markings prominent and incorrect.  Also, an easy way to easily know that this rifle is incorrect as most 1886 rifles contained case coloured receivers until 1901, the only common exception to this rule being a takedown rifle.  

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Posts: 1690
March 25, 2023 - 1:09 pm

18sp_QuotePost

  Dan,

 The serial number on the lower tang looks real, but the tang can be changed with a screwdriver. The letter will list the features of the gun that originally had the lower tang. The 50cal receiver has several machine cuts to feed the bigger cartridge. If the gun feeds the correct ammo then the receiver is a factory original 50 or a modified smaller caliber machined by a very good gunsmith. The person doing the re-blue on your gun was not a very good gunsmith. 

  All guns have value and you will not know what this one is worth until you get the letter and find out if it feeds. If in the future you are buying a collectible gun ask for help before you buy. T/R

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Eastern Iowa
Posts: 272
March 25, 2023 - 1:21 pm
19sp_QuotePost

That gun would make a great shooter. I’ll never be able to afford an original finish gun in that caliber, but I’d gladly consider that one for a shooter. Even that one will probably bring more that I could pay.

Avatar
Great Basin
Posts: 486
March 25, 2023 - 2:39 pm

20sp_QuotePost

Not every firearm that’s no longer in original condition and configuration has been intentionally faked.  It’s quite possible, and in fact probable, that whoever had the work done just wanted it refinished and rebarreled to their desired caliber by a local gunsmith.  Looking at the work, it’s highly unlikely that whoever did the work was seriously trying to pass it off as an original.  While serious collectors would never have this work done to an original Winchester, it doesn’t mean that this rifle was intentionally faked for profit.   I’d have to agree with Brooksy, it would make a great shooter for those of us who will never have an opportunity to own a legitimate 50-100-450.  Heck, I’d enjoy having here on the ranch for a weekend and do some shooting with it.  Of course, I like to shoot them all.  LaughMark

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