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How can you tell an AFTERMARKET saddle ring from FACTORY?
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Posts: 36
March 13, 2021 - 6:16 pm

1sp_QuotePost

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This is a 1920’s Model 94 Carbine. How can you tell if the saddle ring is Factory? Are the Factory studs and the Aftermarket threaded where the rifle would have to come apart? Any help is appreciated. I have a 1927 Eastern Model 94 Carbine so this is new to me.

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10590
March 13, 2021 - 6:36 pm

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All Model 1894/94 Carbines were equipped with a saddle ring as standard through 1931 unless specifically ordered without one.  The first piece of information that I look when verifying a late production SRC is the serial number, as it will tell me precisely when the receiver was manufactured.  Having stated that, in early 1928 Winchester began manufacturing small batches of “Eastern” Carbines, and by mid 1929, they significantly ramped up the production of Carbines without saddle rings. By late 1929, more than 50% of the production was the “Eastern” Carbine variation.

In regards to the gun in the pictures you posted, the saddle ring stud & ring does not appear to be original to that gun, or it was removed for a period of time and then later reinstalled.  Reproduction SR studs are made to screw into the receiver frame exactly the same as an original.

What is the serial number on the SRC in your pictures?  

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 36
March 14, 2021 - 11:47 am

3sp_QuotePost

The photo is serial number 1005302.

I am trying to verify an original SRC by photo. I have a few photos that show the saddle ring covers the screw completely. This would show approximate outer, inner diameter which shows how thick the ring is.  The Aftermarket rings appear to be a thinner ring like the one on 1005302

986369-1925.jpgImage Enlargera.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-94-SRC-32-Win-SPL-2-3-Magazine-Circa-1925_101075839_69275_B0DC45C39D893135.jpgImage Enlarger.

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Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 782
March 14, 2021 - 12:15 pm

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Please correct me if I am wrong, but the saddle ring base (underside) that met the receiver was was not flat.  It was machined (undercut) so that only the outer edge contacted the receiver.  If the saddle ring (sling ring) base is flat, it is a reproduction.  RDB

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Oregon
Posts: 474
March 14, 2021 - 4:17 pm

5sp_QuotePost

Roger is correct.  The underside of the base of the original stud was concave.  Some repros, like Jim Grueter’s were also made that way.  Both the stud and the accompanying ring in the above photos are reproductions IMHO.

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10590
March 14, 2021 - 6:48 pm

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Lever Action said
The photo is serial number 1005302.

I am trying to verify an original SRC by photo. I have a few photos that show the saddle ring covers the screw completely. This would show approximate outer, inner diameter which shows how thick the ring is.  The Aftermarket rings appear to be a thinner ring like the one on 1005302

986369-1925.jpgImage Enlargera.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-94-SRC-32-Win-SPL-2-3-Magazine-Circa-1925_101075839_69275_B0DC45C39D893135.jpgImage Enlarger.  

In the pictures above, only the first gun has its original stud & ring.  On an original Winchester SRC, the stud is perfectly oriented so that the ring swings front to back directly inline with the receiver.

Note that in the second the picture (from Leroy Merz’s website) that the stud is approximately 85-degrees out of alignment and that the ring pivots almost vertically versus front to back on the stud. 

The third gun has a slightly misaligned stud, and most notably, the stud and ring have nearly 100% of the bluing still on them, whereas the receiver is almost in the white… big red flag.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 36
March 15, 2021 - 1:52 pm

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Thank you all for your posts.

So I take it that the underside of the FACTORY stud base is concave and the stud threads only allow the stud to seat horizontal to the rifle so the hole is vertical allowing the ring to swing left to right. 

I have photos of 91304 which is FACTORY original. I will use these photos as a reference.

91304.jpgImage Enlarger91304-SRC.jpgImage Enlarger

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Posts: 36
March 15, 2021 - 2:51 pm

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1008919.jpgImage Enlarger1008919-SRC.jpgImage Enlarger

This saddle ring looks to seat correctly. The bluing on the stud and ring make it stand out from the receiver. Would this be AFTERMARKET?

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NY
Posts: 6136
March 15, 2021 - 3:04 pm

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Lever Action said

This saddle ring looks to seat correctly. The bluing on the stud and ring make it stand out from the receiver. Would this be AFTERMARKET?  

I don’t know, but bluing wears away soonest on the “high” points, like the stud. The mark on the rcvr left by the ring looks right, though no doubt it’s possible to fake it.  On earlier guns there’s no visible gap between the two ends of the ring, just a hairline joint; but that doesn’t mean later rings were made the same way. 

I have a question:  why were so many original rings removed? 

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10590
March 15, 2021 - 3:06 pm

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Lever Action said
1008919.jpgImage Enlarger1008919-SRC.jpgImage Enlarger

This saddle ring looks to seat correctly. The bluing on the stud and ring make it stand out from the receiver. Would this be AFTERMARKET?  

The orientation of the stud & ring look perfectly correct.  That stated, I am suspicious of it due to the lack of any rub wear on the side of the receiver frame.  If that SR spent its entire lifetime on that gun, it was either wrapped up (usually in leather) for nearly all of its life, or was removed and just recently reinstalled.  Either way, I do not see anything negative about the way it is now.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10590
March 15, 2021 - 3:12 pm

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clarence said
I have a question:  why were so many original rings removed?   

Because they rattled & clinked when carrying them on hunting excursions.  That is also why you see a fair number of them wrapped in leather or similar material.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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NY
Posts: 6136
March 15, 2021 - 3:47 pm

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Bert H. said

Because they rattled & clinked when carrying them on hunting excursions.  That is also why you see a fair number of them wrapped in leather or similar material.  

In other words, because they were a useless nuisance. 

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10590
March 15, 2021 - 3:59 pm

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clarence said

In other words, because they were a useless nuisance.   

That is certainly one way to look at it.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 9
March 15, 2021 - 9:40 pm

14sp_QuotePost

Good info guys, thank you for your time and efforts ………………..

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South Texas
Posts: 1040
March 16, 2021 - 5:57 am

15sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

Because they rattled & clinked when carrying them on hunting excursions.  That is also why you see a fair number of them wrapped in leather or similar material.  

Im not really sure how the leather helps.  Have tried it, dosent do much good.  Found what makes the most noise is when the saddle ring rattles around in the hole in the stud, not so much so from it hitting on the receiver.  

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

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South Texas
Posts: 1040
March 16, 2021 - 6:04 am

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The easiest way to age a reproduction ring and stud is to carry it in your pocket with some coins for a week or two or until you get the desired wear. 

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

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Posts: 36
March 16, 2021 - 1:46 pm

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Here is an AFTERMARKET Winchester model 94 pre 64 saddle ring being sold on eBay. This is the ad.

Winchester Saddle Ring & Stud 1894 94 1876 76 1886 86 1895 95 Pre-64 Only | eBay

Pre-64-Saddle-Ring.jpgImage Enlarger

This Saddle Ring & Stud are correct for the Pre-64 SRC:

Winchester 1876, 1886, 1894 & 1895

Correct Diameter Ring of 1 & 1/16 in. and Thickness of 11/64 in. for Winchesters.

Correct Stud threads of ¼ – 30 TPI for Pre-64 Winchesters

PRICE: The Saddle Ring & Stud are $35.95 

SHIPPING COST to US address:  $3.45

Any gunsmiths out there with a photo of the FACTORY stud and ring to compare?

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Posts: 36
March 16, 2021 - 2:25 pm

December 7, 2023 - 10:20 am

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A very cool topic to discuss, I can tell you that sometimes I just want to go hunting with friends or family. A long time ago I didn’t understand why my father loved hunting so much, but now everything has fallen into place. I also recently went to make a guilloche for my documents, and at the same time I upgraded the stock for my rifle, which I was also very pleased with. So, reading your discussion, I realise that I need to find a free day, maybe even a week, and spend it hunting.

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Posts: 483
December 7, 2023 - 9:56 pm

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Recall a post a while back that indicated original studs were always oriented horizontally on SRC’s

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