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Did Winchester make a pre-64 Model 70 in 30-03 Government
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July 11, 2021 - 1:08 pm
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A cartridge that had been obsolete since 1906?  Not hardly.

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July 11, 2021 - 11:14 pm
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Tony,

I believe that Winchester did indeed make at least a few Model 70 Rifles in 30-03. Hopefully Lou will jump in with his vast knowledge of the Model 70 production.

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July 11, 2021 - 11:57 pm
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In a thread somewhere a long time ago there were pics of a similar gun.

It appeared that the #6 in the caliber designation stamp was chipped giving the appearance of a #3. It was pretty easy to visualize how it should have been.

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July 12, 2021 - 12:08 am
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Bert H. said
Tony,
I believe that Winchester did indeed make at least a few Model 70 Rifles in 30-03. Hopefully Lou will jump in with his vast knowledge of the Model 70 production.  

Was not offered for 54s, so bizarre if it became available for 70s.

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July 12, 2021 - 12:10 am
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Tedk said
In a thread somewhere a long time ago there were pics of a similar gun.

It appeared that the #6 in the caliber designation stamp was chipped giving the appearance of a #3. It was pretty easy to visualize how it should have been.  

That makes sense–caliber dies do wear or get damaged.

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July 12, 2021 - 3:21 pm
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Maybe it’s a .30-30

Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.

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July 18, 2021 - 2:06 pm
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[email protected] said
Lou,

Did respond to my PM. He’s in the process of moving, and doesn’t have WiFi, but was able to log on at his brothers house, and answer some questions, that I had.

He stated that he is not aware of any,  DOCUMENTED, pre-64 model 70’s in 30-03 Caliber!

The 30-03 case neck is a little longer, and is an issue trying to fit in a chamber for the 30-06, but the 30-03 chamber would except the 30-06 Cartridge!

Hence, Why there have been sightings in the past of a 30-06, Caliber pre-64 Model 70, re stamped, over the original Factory stamped 30-06 Caliber!

Lou, also brought up a very good point, stating that the U.S. fought the whole World War using the 30-06 Caliber, right up until the mfg. of the Winchester Model 70.

Lou, also stated that this issue came up about a year ago, and he spoke with Justin Hale, (@Pre-64 win.com), about the issue, and Justin had pics of a chipped Stamped 30 GOV’T’06, Die, that looked like a 30-03 Caliber. without magnification benefit!

I’m sure when Lou gets settled, we’ll here some more from him.Smile  

I’m not a M70 guy.  I am curious about the concept of a “documented” (pre-64) M70.  How many M70’s can be documented? Isn’t that the problem with purchasing M70’s in .300 Savage, .35 Remington, 7.65, 9mm and so on – that is – there are no factory records to check to prove that serial number rifle was shipped in that chambering?  I suppose if an original invoice from the factory had been retained, one would have documentation but short of that are there any other documentation options?

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July 18, 2021 - 4:38 pm
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steve004 said

I’m not a M70 guy.  I am curious about the concept of a “documented” (pre-64) M70.  How many M70’s can be documented? Isn’t that the problem with purchasing M70’s in .300 Savage, .35 Remington, 7.65, 9mm and so on – that is – there are no factory records to check to prove that serial number rifle was shipped in that chambering?  I suppose if an original invoice from the factory had been retained, one would have documentation but short of that are there any other documentation options?  

Wouldn’t necessarily have to document a specific rifle chambered for .30-03, only that the chambering was available on special order, in which case there would surely be factory records of some sort to document that fact; there are none, & the idea of making available even on special order such an obsolete, inferior cartridge is really too ludicrous to deserve serious consideration, esp. when there’s a common-sense rational explanation for how a barrel could be mis-marked. 

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July 18, 2021 - 5:35 pm
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clarence said

Wouldn’t necessarily have to document a specific rifle chambered for .30-03, only that the chambering was available on special order, in which case there would surely be factory records of some sort to document that fact; there are none, & the idea of making available even on special order such an obsolete, inferior cartridge is really too ludicrous to deserve serious consideration, esp. when there’s a common-sense rational explanation for how a barrel could be mis-marked.   

Ah but the, “spin” seller’s often put on such items.  I’m often struck by how often the presentation, confidence, and loosely related tidbits of information are woven together to create the illusion of reality.  Not that anyone here would fall for it, but I have seen it succeed time and time again.  These are the type items that can get bid up to crazy money at auctions – often by bidders who could stand to be more knowledgeable and could stand to have a better understanding of Caveat Emptor.  

In the case of Model 70’s, it’s not like a factory letter for that serial numbered rifle is going to show up to disprove the seller’s claims. 

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July 18, 2021 - 6:24 pm
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steve004 said

In the case of Model 70’s, it’s not like a factory letter for that serial numbered rifle is going to show up to disprove the seller’s claims.   

What would disprove the seller’s claims is close inspection by an expert like Lou.  If one existed that could stand up to such inspection, it would already have sold for “crazy money” at some major auction & we’d know about it–the rarest M70 in existence! 

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July 18, 2021 - 6:38 pm
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[email protected] said
Just got this photo from Lou.

Of a Mis stamped pre-64 Model 70.thumbnail.jpgImage Enlarger

This seems to be the same Rifle in question on another Forum, but until, we can verify serial #’s, it’s a guess as they are both claimed to be mfg. in 1948!  

That last “3” in the caliber marking sure looks odd and out of sync to me.

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July 18, 2021 - 6:39 pm
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[email protected] said

Of a Mis stamped pre-64 Model 70.thumbnail.jpgImage Enlarger

This seems to be the same Rifle in question on another Forum, but until, we can verify serial #’s, it’s a guess as they are both claimed to be mfg. in 1948!  

Compare the two 3s–they aren’t the same.  Even without a magnifier, it’s possible to see that the serif at the upper end of the 6 doesn’t touch the circular part of the number.  The second “3” is the result of a badly cut or damaged 6 die.

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July 18, 2021 - 7:25 pm
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clarence said

Compare the two 3s–they aren’t the same.  Even without a magnifier, it’s possible to see that the serif at the upper end of the 6 doesn’t touch the circular part of the number.  The second “3” is the result of a badly cut or damaged 6 die.  

I don’t think that last 3 had ever been a six.

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July 18, 2021 - 7:32 pm
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What looks like a 3 was supposed to be a 6 and is the result of being struck with a chipped die, it hasn’t been altered.

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July 18, 2021 - 10:29 pm
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I do not believe this rifle was originally, nor is, a .30-03.

I located a Winchester Model 70 in .30 06 from 1948.  Click on the barrel markings and note how it differs from the markings on this one, especially the lack of dashes.

If I had to guess, I think the barrel on the rifle that is the subject matter of this thread has been replaced.

I wonder what the date is on the underside of the barrel?  Odds are it isn’t 1948.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/930835844/Winchester-Model-70-rifle-30-06-PRE-64-1948-manufacture-date.htm

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July 18, 2021 - 10:45 pm
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I have

[email protected] said
Steve,

I thought the same thing, until I imagined a six, there and my eyes told me that there was a six there!

Try it! Concentrate on the supposed 3, that was a six and try to imagine, or picture the six.

I know, it sounds crazy, and if I would have found it at a Gun Show, thinking it was a rare bird, I would have been fooled!

Knowing in advance what were looking for makes it all the difference in the world.

Just my opinion!Smile 

[email protected] said
Steve,

I thought the same thing, until I imagined a six, there and my eyes told me that there was a six there!

Try it! Concentrate on the supposed 3, that was a six and try to imagine, or picture the six.

I know, it sounds crazy, and if I would have found it at a Gun Show, thinking it was a rare bird, I would have been fooled!

Knowing in advance what were looking for makes it all the difference in the world.

Just my opinion!Smile  

I have been trying what you suggest.  I just can’t quite get there.  If you think about the bottom of the 6, on other rifles it seems to make basically a perfect circle.  On this one (the “3”) that part of the bottom circle – at about the 1:00 position – starts to curve up.  

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July 18, 2021 - 10:52 pm
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mrcvs said
I do not believe this rifle was originally, nor is, a .30-03.

I located a Winchester Model 70 in .30 06 from 1948.  Click on the barrel markings and note how it differs from the markings on this one, especially the lack of dashes.

If I had to guess, I think the barrel on the rifle that is the subject matter of this thread has been replaced.

I wonder what the date is on the underside of the barrel?  Odds are it isn’t 1948.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/930835844/Winchester-Model-70-rifle-30-06-PRE-64-1948-manufacture-date.htm  

Here’s another example for us to compare.  This one also doesn’t have the dashes, but notice the V’T’06. vs. the one we have been discussing which is V’T03

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-70-pre-64/winchester-model-70-pre-war-variation-4-carbine-30-06-government-20-barrel-lyman-48-wjs-rear-side-mount-receiver-sight-cool-.cfm?gun_id=101684524#md-9

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July 18, 2021 - 11:04 pm
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[email protected] said

I know, it sounds crazy, and if I would have found it at a Gun Show, thinking it was a rare bird, I would have been fooled!

 

If this gun was legit, or even “apparently” legit, it would be the star attraction in a Rock Island or other big-time auction, not on a gun show table.

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July 18, 2021 - 11:14 pm
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steve004 said

Here’s another example for us to compare.  This one also doesn’t have the dashes, but notice the V’T’06. vs. the one we have been discussing which is V’T03

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-70-pre-64/winchester-model-70-pre-war-variation-4-carbine-30-06-government-20-barrel-lyman-48-wjs-rear-side-mount-receiver-sight-cool-.cfm?gun_id=101684524#md-9  

That’s a 1940 gun.  The markings on that one look more like the subject matter of this thread.  And thus, there’s the likely answer.  It’s an earlier barrel affixed to this 1948 production Model 70 with a weak “6” that looks like a “3”.

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July 19, 2021 - 10:24 pm
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On the topic of worn or chipped caliber stamping dies, here’s an interesting one Austin currently has on auction:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/905417656

Note photo #19

Both 0’s and the V show damage.

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