Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Confused Newbee
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 9
Member Since:
February 5, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
February 9, 2017 - 2:06 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

After years of not collecting, I started doing this wondeful hobby again.  Retirement give me a lot more time researching aparticular firearm I am interested in obtaining.  My rifle collection is basically rooted around US and Foreign militry rifle made or used during one of the wars or conflicts.   Enough background, now to th meat of the question…..

I am interested in obtaining a Winchester 1895 in .30 US (.30-40 Kraig?) preferrably military marked.  Not one that will become a “safe queen”, but one in original condition and safe to shoot.  The one I have seen on-line run a gamit of calibers and configurations.  The reference book I have on military firerms really is not much help providing enough information for me to make an informed decision on the 1895.

Any help on what I should be looking for (rifle or carbine) would be greatly appreciated.  Really want one that was manufactured just prior to the Spanish American War that ha the correct military acceptance markings.  Thanks in advance for any and all information.

 

Respectfully,

Ron Z., USN(Ret)

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
February 9, 2017 - 4:02 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ronnie L Zimmerman Sr said 

I am interested in obtaining a Winchester 1895 in .30 US (.30-40 Kraig?) preferrably military marked…
Ron Z., USN(Ret)  

That’s about 10,000 (at most!) out of a total of 400,000+.  Odds not in your favor.

Avatar
Great Basin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 490
Member Since:
November 27, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
3
February 9, 2017 - 5:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

As Clarence points out, there were 10,000 US martially marked 1895 muskets.  They were ordered by the Ordnance Dept. in 1898.  They fall roughly in the 7,000-18,000 serial number range.  100 of them were sent to the Philippines for testing and were given an unfavorable review by Arthur McArthur, a MOH recipient and father of Douglas McArthur.  They were shipped back stateside and sold to an East Coast dealer.  The other 9,900 were sold into Central and South America, mostly to Cuba.

There are few complete survivors today and the ones that do survive are usually in pretty tough condition.  I have not encountered any that I would consider to be in anything more than fair condition.  Most are missing parts or have been converted into carbines.  Any US marked carbines should be documented through the Cody Firearms Museum for originality.  It is unclear whether any original carbines were included in the musket order, but there are a few out there that are claimed to be original.

In the upcoming Rock Island Auction, there are two US marked 1895’s.  One complete musket in typically poor condition and one carbine in equally poor condition.  I checked with Cody about the carbine and the factory records indicate that it was originally a musket.     

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 9
Member Since:
February 5, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
February 10, 2017 - 12:50 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mark and Clarence, thank you for the information on number mfg for the government and the chance of obtaining one being slim.  Guess I’ll just look for one in good or better condition that is safe to shoot.  I would prefer a carbine, but almost everyone I see has a curved forestock end and no upper stock and no barrel bands.  Don’t know if I am correct on my aumption that these were probably muskets that were cut done.  I have seen 1 that the stock is like my trap door carbine stock, upper handguard and 1 barrel band.  Is my assumption that the carbines would have had the upper hand guard and 1 barrel band?

 

Sights…  I have seen a couple that have the typical militry leaf rear sight and also a couple that have a receiver mounted sight that has a lever for height adjustment.  Which one would be corrxt for an original carbine?

Avatar
Great Basin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 490
Member Since:
November 27, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
5
February 10, 2017 - 2:37 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ronnie, Any government contract carbine should have an upper handguard, 1 barrel band, and a standard carbine/musket rear leaf sight.  They should also have a curved carbine buttstock with a sliding door and compartment for a cleaning kit.

Like most other Winchester models, commercial 1895 carbines came with a variety of options including shotgun butts, Lyman receiver sights, deleted saddle rings and deleted handguards.  

Not a lot of ’95 carbines came from the factory with a Lyman receiver sight.  Most that I have come across haven’t been drilled and tapped for a rear carbine sight and either didn’t come with a handguard or had a solid handguard without a rear sight cutout.  Most don’t have a saddle ring either.  Carbines that came from the factory without a handguard won’t have the cutouts in the forend for the handguard retaining clips.

Below is a link to the US marked musket selling at Rock Island next weekend:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1028/6031#detail 

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
February 10, 2017 - 3:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ronnie L Zimmerman Sr said 

Sights…  I have seen a couple that have the typical militry leaf rear sight and also a couple that have a receiver mounted sight that has a lever for height adjustment.  Which one would be corrxt for an original carbine?  

Believe you said you wanted a ’95 to shoot, not a “safe queen.” Right? 

Then may I suggest you do yourself a BIG favor by finding one equipped with that beautifully-designed, easy to use, Lyman receiver sight, #21 without windage adjustment, or #38 with.  They were quite popular, so finding a gun so-equipped shouldn’t be hugely difficult.  Bought separately, price of sight is usually $200+.

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 9
Member Since:
February 5, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
February 11, 2017 - 12:46 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mark & Clarence….  Again thanks for the insight and advice.  That gives me a lot more options to look at.

Avatar
Great Basin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 490
Member Since:
November 27, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
8
February 20, 2017 - 4:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

If the two martially marked 1895’s in last week’s Rock Island Auction are any indication, the market is much higher for them than I thought.  The musket sold for almost $2,600 (hammer price + premium).  I believe RIA had and estimate of $800-$1,200 on the gun and I really thought it would sell around $1,500 – $1,800. 

Apparently, at least two bidders were convinced that the carbine was authentic, since its final price reached over $5,000.  Sadly, as I pointed out in an earlier post, the records show it left the factory as a musket and was subsequently altered to carbine configuration.  Personally, I don’t think this gun is worth more than about $800.  Again, buyer beware of 1895 US marked carbines. 

One tell-tale sign of an altered musket is the provision on the front of the magazine for a sling swivel.  They were present on muskets only.  Buyers should be very skeptical of any 1895 rifle or carbine with this present.  The RIA carbine had this feature indicating, along with the factory records, that it was originally a musket.

I feel for the collector who was taken in by this gun.  That’s a lot of hard earned money to throw away on an altered gun.  However, it does give us an indication of what some collectors are willing to pay for a martially marked carbine.   

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
February 20, 2017 - 11:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mark Douglas said
I feel for the collector who was taken in by this gun.  That’s a lot of hard earned money to throw away on an altered gun…

What collector?  Is that merely someone having money (“hard earned,” who knows?) to throw away on an altered gun, or is it someone who studies seriously the objects of his collecting interest?  Seems like anyone with 5 Gs to blow could afford to obtain the same info from Cody that you have.

Avatar
Great Basin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 490
Member Since:
November 27, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
10
February 21, 2017 - 12:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Clarence,

It just bothers me to see anybody get taken to the cleaners on a gun, whether they should know better or not. 

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
February 21, 2017 - 1:21 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mark Douglas said
Clarence,

It just bothers me to see anybody get taken to the cleaners on a gun, whether they should know better or not.   

On the other hand, I have a feeling the gun’s owner was not too distressed about it! 

Avatar
SO. Oregon
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 678
Member Since:
June 5, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
February 21, 2017 - 5:34 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Mark Douglas said
I feel for the collector who was taken in by this gun.  That’s a lot of hard earned money to throw away on an altered gun…

What collector?  Is that merely someone having money (“hard earned,” who knows?) to throw away on an altered gun, or is it someone who studies seriously the objects of his collecting interest?  Seems like anyone with 5 Gs to blow could afford to obtain the same info from Cody that you have.  

Since the buyer had no rating on GB he just got into the game. I just hope he didn’t jump in and buy the gun of somebody’s dreams, not knowing the person (maybe his aging Dad) will know it’s problems. Had something similar happen to me. I still have the p o s.

Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles

 “There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”

Teddy Roosevelt 

4029-1.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
February 21, 2017 - 1:40 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Vince said

Since the buyer had no rating on GB he just got into the game…

Well, that’s an awfully pleasant place to be able to start–the 5 Gs level!  (Believe I started at about the $50 level in a pawnshop.)

But GB ratings are no indication of how long one may have been searching there; I’ve “window shopped” there for 10 or more yrs, but actually bought only two (one of which I later resold at a significant loss just to get the damn thing out of my sight!).

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2324
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
February 21, 2017 - 4:14 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Vince said

Since the buyer had no rating on GB he just got into the game. I just hope he didn’t jump in and buy the gun of somebody’s dreams, not knowing the person (maybe his aging Dad) will know it’s problems. Had something similar happen to me. I still have the p o s.  

I like that M1890. Got one just about the same condition in 22 long. My 1st Winchester. Got it around 59 or 60.  Big Larry

Avatar
SO. Oregon
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 678
Member Since:
June 5, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
February 22, 2017 - 3:52 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Big Larry said

I like that M1890. Got one just about the same condition in 22 long. My 1st Winchester. Got it around 59 or 60.  Big Larry  

Mine is WRF. Luckily found 250 roundsfor it.

Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles

 “There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”

Teddy Roosevelt 

4029-1.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
February 22, 2017 - 3:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Vince said

Mine is WRF. Luckily found 250 roundsfor it.  

First ’90 I ever had was WRF.  Back then any gun store had plenty of WRF ammo; problem was, the stuff was so inaccurate, compared to Long Rifle, that it wasn’t worth shooting, unless you were satisfied with the noise.  Well maybe, you think, that particular ’90 was just a lemon, but several years later I acquired an immaculate Stevens 418 with a mint bore; my expectations were crushed the first time I fired it–just wasn’t in same league with a comparable gun in Long Rifle.  At that point I gave up for good on WRFs.  A great shame–could be far superior hunting cartridge to L.R., if only ammo was loaded to same accuracy standards.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2324
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
February 23, 2017 - 3:31 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

First ’90 I ever had was WRF.  Back then any gun store had plenty of WRF ammo; problem was, the stuff was so inaccurate, compared to Long Rifle, that it wasn’t worth shooting, unless you were satisfied with the noise.  Well maybe, you think, that particular ’90 was just a lemon, but several years later I acquired an immaculate Stevens 418 with a mint bore; my expectations were crushed the first time I fired it–just wasn’t in same league with a comparable gun in Long Rifle.  At that point I gave up for good on WRFs.  A great shame–could be far superior hunting cartridge to L.R., if only ammo was loaded to same accuracy standards.  

Mine was a gift from a Hollywood stand in and Stunt girl. This was around 1959 or 1960. The bore is bad, but it still shoots well. I shoot those CCI 22 longs. It still has a touch of blue on the receiver. For years I single loaded BB caps into it and shot birds for my cats. Better than my Sheridan pellet rifle. I will pass this on to my 2nd. Cousin. It will stay in the family.    Big Larry 

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
February 23, 2017 - 4:15 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Big Larry said 

I shoot those CCI 22 longs.    Big Larry   

You can shoot Long Rifle is you don’t mind single-loading.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
February 23, 2017 - 4:54 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Vince said

Since the buyer had no rating on GB he just got into the game…

Well, that’s an awfully pleasant place to be able to start–the 5 Gs level!  (Believe I started at about the $50 level in a pawnshop.)

But GB ratings are no indication of how long one may have been searching there; I’ve “window shopped” there for 10 or more yrs, but actually bought only two (one of which I later resold at a significant loss just to get the damn thing out of my sight!).  

I’m in complete agreement with you but I’ve learned there are more than a few “collectors” out there with more dollars than sense. I suspect some of the top end guns go to corporate buyers who are more interested in exclusivity or other factors than value. I hope I can find these guys if I ever decide to sell a few guns, lol.

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2324
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
February 23, 2017 - 4:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

You can shoot Long Rifle is you don’t mind single-loading.  

Back when I got this rifle, 22 LR’s were actually cheaper than Longs and easier to find. I did fire 22 LR’s out of it, single shot, for many years. Did not seem to have hurt it as it still chambers and fires perfectly. At the time, I was making 90 cents an hour in 1959.  I also had a Remington 513T Matchmaster but never took it hunting. Too heavy for my boney 16 year old arms.

Now, my M56 22 short, will not chamber a LR cartridge.    Big Larry

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: gobblerforge, bhutch, Mark Douglas, tsbccut
Guest(s) 101
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6281
TXGunNut: 4970
Chuck: 4571
1873man: 4282
steve004: 4160
Big Larry: 2324
twobit: 2291
TR: 1710
mrcvs: 1706
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12650
Posts: 109996

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1745
Members: 8792
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation