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clarence said
Bert H. said
I personally would not have chosen the term “relic”, but I also see no earth shattering issues with that term being used… its all about semantics.Bert
Semantics? Hard to believe the word was chosen randomly or inadvertently, merely a slip of someone’s tongue. I mean, do you often refer to your own guns as “relics,” or do you know other collectors who do? It’s was chosen DELIBERATELY to express PC. When that’s done by administrators of a firearms museum, “earth shattering” is not too far off the mark.
Clarence,
What you seem to forget is that your opinions are not shared by everyone… again, if this is truly an “earth shattering” problem for you, then YOU need to take it up personally with the CFM staff! B****ing about here on the WACA forum is a waste of time! If this topic continues to persist, I will end it very soon.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Sorry, was just going by what WPO posted. If it’s on the internet, it must be true!!?
I had not planned on posting on this topic any further, but in looking back over the posts I realize I made an error. I had mis-read WPO’s post about his visit to the museum. I had read that he saw the sign in question 7 or so years ago. Now, I see that he saw it there recently.
I thought about this topic and I respectfully disagree that it is a waste of time. The firearms community (and firearms) continue to be evilized in large and small ways. For me, the sign in the museum is an example of, “death by a thousand cuts.” True, it’s just a sign that upsets some while others give it a little notice. I’m actually with Clarence on this. Everyday, I see firearms and the people that use them, portrayed negatively. For me, I interpret the message of the sign to suggest agreement that firearms are somehow bad, and the museum wants everyone to know that is not what is displayed here. It is caving into the anti-gun culture. As I said, “death by a thousand cuts” – and remember, a lot of times you’re not even cognizant of the cut when it is made.
I would expect a sign like that here in the People’s Republic of Californiastan….. but not in Wyoming……..
clarence said
steve004 said
How can you complain if there’s no evidence (e.g. visual evidence) of anything to complain about?
You aren’t disputing, I hope, the eye-witness evidence of those who reported they saw it? Even if the sign is gone, the person who dreamed it up is still on the payroll, presumably.
I really wish I had taken a picture, some who are questioning if it was really there would be convinced. To tell everyone a little about myself, my profile shows member since 2021, that is incorrect. Funny story, I bought a life membership from George Madis in the 1990’s-he became a close friend. I was inactive in the hobby for last 10 yrs or so. Earlier this year found this site and tried to log on with my LM number, wouldn’t let me. Emailed the WACA and the girl came back unable to find my membership.She kept looking and found me in the “deceased” list of members, so I guess I am the only member to ever rise from the dead 
So I have been around Winchesters and the Cody museum for quite a while,collected some of the rarer engraved guns in our hobby- I bet George did 50 or so letters for my guns. I am not just some new to the hobby guy.The sign is on the left wall right as you enter the Firearms museum passing the saddle maker display. I pointed this out to my daughter and 2 friends who were with me, so total of 4 of us saw this. It was there the day I was in the museum and it doesn’t appear to be a temporary sign, was part of the display info signs we see throughout the museum
I am heartened to hear of a collector who has made it back from the dead. Congratulations WPO.
I also want to clarify my comment about no current evidence. Again, I misread the original post. I read it to mean that WPO had seen the sign 7 or more years ago and hadn’t seen it since. I thought maybe in those intervening seven or more years, the sign may have been taken down and hence, there would be no current evidence of an active issue. I certainly trust that if WPO saw the sign recently, he surely did.
I’m also not advocating that we need to continue to discuss this. Each person is free to express their views if they choose to and if you want to make an impact, the more directly they are expressed (i.e. to the right people) the better. Letter writing, phone calls, in-person visits are all vehicles to draw attention to any issue a person cares to take on. Personally, if a decision has been made that I don’t agree with, I prefer direct dialog. My agenda includes first trying to understand why they made the decision they made. That may or may not change my mind on how I feel about it. That dialog would also include expressing my views – which has he chance of impacting the thinking of the other party.
November 7, 2015
Offline
I’m a proud member of both WACA and CFM. I had some concerns about the recent changes and I addressed them with the curator. I had a good visit with Danny, he’s a good man. I also understand that the museum needs to appeal to a broader target market than Winchester collectors to survive. Overall, I think the remodel was a huge success. I’ve learned many of the changes made were necessary to preserve the specimens and documents we hold dear. I don’t dispute the sign’s existence, and I don’t know what intent was behind the wording of the sign. I didn’t see it, I was there for the displays. Maybe some of us are reading too much into it. As noted above, there are better ways of addressing the issue.
Mike
Online
TXGunNut said
I also understand that the museum needs to appeal to a broader target market than Winchester collectors to survive.
Gun haters? Might be a good plan–Lord knows there are a lot of them.
Wonder how the Buffalo Bill Ctr. is dealing with Buffalo Bill’s famous role in the near-extinction of bison. “Presentism”–look it up if you don’t know what it means; the national media would be lost without it!
clarence said
Wonder how the Buffalo Bill Ctr. is dealing with Buffalo Bill’s famous role in the near-extinction of bison. “Presentism”–look it up if you don’t know what it means; the national media would be lost without it!
I did look it up. There is way too much of this going on.
TXGunNut said
I’m a proud member of both WACA and CFM. I had some concerns about the recent changes and I addressed them with the curator. I had a good visit with Danny, he’s a good man. I also understand that the museum needs to appeal to a broader target market than Winchester collectors to survive. Overall, I think the remodel was a huge success. I’ve learned many of the changes made were necessary to preserve the specimens and documents we hold dear. I don’t dispute the sign’s existence, and I don’t know what intent was behind the wording of the sign. I didn’t see it, I was there for the displays. Maybe some of us are reading too much into it. As noted above, there are better ways of addressing the issue.
Mike
As a retired CFO of a Fortune 100 organization, I’m still on, and have been on dozen of both for-profit and not-for-profit Boards. Not a word or phrase in signage or advertising is released to the public without careful discussion, voting, and approval. If the term Relic was used, there was a reason. So I don’t think we are reading to much into this. This could have been a perfect opportunity to beat their chests and proclaim these are Firearms, dammit!! Protected by the Constitution.
Guys.. I apologize for kicking the hornets nest here,but as relates to the “woke” sign, I understand individuals taking up grievances directly,but WACA represents 10,000+ members, speaking as a group via the WACA leaders would seem much more effective vs a few individuals firing off emails/letters.Individual emails/letters are too easily written off as “we can’t please everyone”,speaking from the preeminent Winchester Collectors Organization as a whole would seem to carry much more weight,which was my point in suggesting some of our WACA leaders bring this up. Sort of like the NRA taking a stand vs individuals writing their senators/congressman.
And my other observation in my initial post on this thread seems to have been lost in the sign discussion. I do feel it is a problem displaying incomplete guns at the museum. To me speaks to understanding of these guns. And Bert, if this topic is off limits please help me understand. I see discussions daily throughout this forum about online auction entries where members pick apart a particular gun. I see my discussion of the museum displaying incomplete guns as nothing different,and actually a more serious issue as they should know better. If I am to be “cancelled” for stating these observations, so be it..
WPO, did these incomplete examples of Winchesters, and I guess other manufacturers, come to the museum in this condition? If so is it the museum’s duty to correct these discrepancies? Interesting questions.
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
Vince said
WPO, did these incomplete examples of Winchesters, and I guess other manufacturers, come to the museum in this condition? If so is it the museum’s duty to correct these discrepancies? Interesting questions.
I hear you Vince, but my point was,surely the museum has complete examples they can display in standard displays of models. If the particular gun was a historical event gun or owned by a prominent figure,I get displaying as received. And I didn’t really look at the other guns on this trip, browsed over these displays.
Does this sign somehow relate to C&R rating of some firearms by the AT&F ? Don
86Win said
Does this sign somehow relate to C&R rating of some firearms by the AT&F ? Don
Addled thinking if it does, because ATF’s specialized legal usage of the term is NOT the common understanding of it. I just returned from shooting two “relics” under that ATF definition, 52s made in the ’30s. They’ve been seen & admired by several friends at my range, but so far no one has asked me where I picked up those “relics.” Visit Gettysburg if you’re looking for relics–every antique store has them for sale, dug (supposedly) out of the battlefield.
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