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Hey guys… about 6-months ago, I bought a rusted-out, stripped 1886 40-65 receiver. It was missing the lower tang. It looked like I could bring it back to life. I had most parts already to get it running again. I turned it into a 45-70 half-magazine carbine. The problem or question I have is that I modified a Japanese Winchester lower tang to fit it. I made it so all original parts fit it. Milling, tig welding, drilling and tapping. The old girl operates and shoots flawlessly. There is no serial number now (Jap lower tang). Can I just stamp some random number into the lower receiver and call it good?
I bought a lower tang and had it lettered. It came back as mfd. 1896 45-90 takedown. I do NOT want to put this on the above carbine. Any advice???
November 7, 2015
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It won’t be the first time an 1886 was sold without a serial number. Some lower tangs were damaged in horse wrecks or other incidents and were subsequently repaired by replacing the lower tang with a replacement part that had no serial number. For pre-1968 guns (and repairs) this doesn’t present a problem. As the receiver was the serial numbered component in the Miroku gun I don’t think using a Miroku lower tang to repair a pre-1968 gun would require conforming to the 1968 laws but an extensive rebuild may change the way BATFE looks at it. Most components of your Winchester were manufactured pre-1968 and pre-1968 firearms did not require a serial number. As a rule they don’t get too excited about the activities of collectors but it only takes one over zealous BATFE agent to turn your life upside down if he opines that your rebuild constitutes manufacturing. If it wasn’t for all the media hype about “ghost guns” I wouldn’t give it a second thought. WARNING: my opinion is based on logic, not law. It may be wise to get an interpretation from a seasoned BATFE person. The BATFE site has a very good FAQ section.
Mike
Mike’s advice is good. If it were me, I’d lay the facts out in writing, very fulsomely, and submit it as a request for the agency’s advice.
At a guess, because the receiver itself is antique — and the agency considers that to be the firearm – and all you are doing is restoring it to shootable condition — and you are not in the business of building and selling firearms – you shouldn’t have trouble.
Whether BATFE answers you or not, I think provably bringing your concern to its attention is protective. There are others who would say let sleeping dogs lie since this is a one-off. [EDITED. I FORGOT YOU WANT TO SELL IT.]
Somewhere there is a compilation of agency rulings and the like. You might peruse those or hire someone with expertise to do so. This situation has surely happened before.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
You created the gun as a shooter so you will have civil liabilty forever. T/R
Putting a serial number on it make you the manufacturer of the gun. The ATF uses the date the serial number was applied as the date it was manufactured.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
TR said
You created the gun as a shooter so you will have civil liabilty forever. T/R
In theory, that is true for anyone who sells a gun that he has even partially disassembled and reassembled.
The theoretical risk can be substantially mitigated by having the buyer acknowledge a series of disclaimers. And by keeping a careful record of what was done, what components were used, and what tests were performed to prove the gun safe to shoot.
Lawyers have the imagination of a child in the dark, which can be useful but can also discourage ever getting out of bed.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I wouldn’t have any record of what you did to make and assemble the gun. If it blows up on someone that just made your prosecution much easier. A gunsmith has liability insurance for doing this kind of stuff. If a gun smith uses a part from the manufacture he has less liability since its only if he didn’t install it correctly but if he makes a part he takes on more liability. Now if you don’t have any networth then they probably wouldn’t sue you since they can’t get anything. The only way to limit your liability without a insurance policy is to have the buyer sign a disclaimer say he not going to fire the gun, its only for display only. Now if he shoots it and it blows up or breaks its on him.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Too bad you don’t know the original serial number of the rifle. If you were going to stamp a number on it, that’s the one that would make sense to me.
I suppose without knowing the serial number, you don’t necessarily know it is a pre-1899 gun? So it may not be an antique.
Steve has brought up a legitimate concern. Perhaps there are characteristics of various parts that would date the action? If not, it would seem like your choice is between
(1) treating it as an antique anyway, not seeking agency advice, and obtaining assurances in writing from the buyer it’s a wall hangar. I don’t like that option myself.
Or (2) Seeking agency advice on how to proceed. I’d inquire of local dealers and gunsmiths the current temperature of the local agency office. If I know anything about bureaucracies, there’s very likely a procedure to assign a serial number to a “home built” gun you may be asked to follow, which I’d guess would take the piece out of the curios and antiques exemption and establish it as a firearm requiring the usual transfer formalities. But that’s a SWAG and I really don’t know. You would still need disclaimers from the Buyer.
My own inclination would be to keep it and use it or pass it down as an heirloom and physical evidence of Grandpa’s impressive skills. I like that third option the best.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I’ve just thought of a fourth option: sell it to a “sophisticated buyer”– one of the WACA brethren that you can trust, setting out in detail the work you’ve done and warning him he should buy it to use and cherish and that he might have hell’s own time if he tries to resell it. If he’s not a gunsmith, require he have a Smith of his choice examine the gun for safe firing, etc.
If it were anything but an 1886, probably no go. But lots of WACA guys would eat a dead rat sandwich to own one they can shoot.
Just a thought.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I want to thank everyone for your great advice and perspectives. I think I’ll just keep it. It looks awful but it shoots great. I ran a box of Leverevolution 300gr out of it with no issues (needed the brass for BP loads). This thing will be eating BP from now on, since 5744 is impossible to find. Thanks again.
You were a lot of help. Take care
Grunt221 said
I want to thank everyone for your great advice and perspectives. I think I’ll just keep it. It looks awful but it shoots great. I ran a box of Leverevolution 300gr out of it with no issues (needed the brass for BP loads). This thing will be eating BP from now on, since 5744 is impossible to find. Thanks again.You were a lot of help. Take care
You can always load it with IMR 4198… start with 28 grains and work it up slowly from there.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Grunt221 said
I want to thank everyone for your great advice and perspectives. I think I’ll just keep it. It looks awful but it shoots great. I ran a box of Leverevolution 300gr out of it with no issues (needed the brass for BP loads). This thing will be eating BP from now on, since 5744 is impossible to find. Thanks again.You were a lot of help. Take care
Not so fast there, Grunt. We need to see some photos so can have fun making useful and other suggestions on how to give your Frankenstein 1886 the Turnbull look on the down low. How awful can an ’86 look and still shoot well, we ask? [We take your word it in fact shoots well … but a few target photos wouldn’t be amiss.]
Idle hands are the devil’s workshop. Full length views: left, right, dorsal, antral, are indicated. Then macro photography of the truly egregious parts and surfaces.
Your friends, by and through the undersigned,
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Grunt221 said
I want to thank everyone for your great advice and perspectives. I think I’ll just keep it. It looks awful but it shoots great. I ran a box of Leverevolution 300gr out of it with no issues (needed the brass for BP loads). This thing will be eating BP from now on, since 5744 is impossible to find. Thanks again.You were a lot of help. Take care
I’m a big fan of 5744 and hope this is a temporary situation. If you’re in the N TX area I may be able to help. I very much dislike cleaning 5744 and bullet lube from a bore but there’s a reason it was Mike Venturino’s powder for so many cartridges! I’m also a fan of Holy Black but there are other options. I’m thinking Unique and/or Universal may be suitable for your activities but my loading notes and other resources are still offsite. Do you cast or buy commercial cast? If so what lube are you using?
Mike
I load a 45-90 with a 300 grain bullet using 31 grains of 4198 for 1500 fps. Since your bullet will be heavier you need to start lower as Bert said. I also use 43 grains of 3031 or 24 grains of 4759. Again you will have to start lower.
Grunt221 said
Hail far, that’s a right handsome rifle. Specially after seeing the “before” picture of the receiver, which may have spent time in a food blender. One thing nobody will question is whether it’s been refinished.
The proportions of the gun are just right, the length and mass of the barrel don’t overwhelm the receiver, the forearm to barrel ratio is right. The carbine buttplate is perfect. All in all, it’s a sleek minimalist look that says the piece is for business, not show. Something a buscadero would carry to end a chase from a comfortable distance.
If I were a less scrupulous person, I might could see an oval shaped medallion made of heavily oxidized brass, inlaid into the offside of the stock, with a simple inscription, faded but mostly legible, “Presented to our friend Sheriff [illegible] for services rendered to the Lincoln County Cattlemen’s Association”
Never mind the Lincoln County War was over by 1881. Sheriff Pat Garrett wasn’t killed until 1908.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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Are you sure your rifle hasn’t been in a fire?
You have a rifle on which you have affixed a carbine butt.
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