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Can anyone tell me who developed the .236 Navy cartridge? Looking online, one site says it was developed by James Paris Lee other sights seem to allude to the US navy and Marines developing the .236. I realize that the Navy and Marines had Winchester, Remington and others design a bolt action rifle chambering the cartridge but was it designed by them.
It is my understanding that Winchester developed the .236 U.S.N. cartridge for the initial trial tests. The earliest rifles chambered for it were the Winchester Single Shot. Winchester eventually manufactured a total of (21) Single Shot rifles & muskets chambered for the 236 U.S.N. cartridge. The first three rifles were in the 69000 serial number range.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for the clarification. I am putting together my display for the Calgary Easter show. My display is on my 1895 Winchester Lee fancy sporting rifle and I wanted to be sure I had all the data correct for the cartridge. Pretty rare rifle being one of 20 made.
[email protected] said
Can anyone tell me who developed the .236 Navy cartridge? Looking online, one site says it was developed by James Paris Lee other sights seem to allude to the US navy and Marines developing the .236. I realize that the Navy and Marines had Winchester, Remington and others design a bolt action rifle chambering the cartridge but was it designed by them.
It is my understanding that James Paris Lee merely designed the U.S. Navy Lee Rifle. And that Winchester designed the ammunition before the firearm was selected by the Navy. Also that the early .236 USN Cartridge used / designed was a Rimmed cartridge. But later on the Navy went to a Rimless cartridge.
I’ve always found this interesting. As for a few years the Winchester Model 1894 Reloading Tool was cataloged listing the .236 Navy caliber. But by the March 1898 Catalog the .236 Navy caliber is dropped from the caliber list. Which I assume means that because the Navy went to the Rimless cartridge the Reloading Tool was now useless for the .236 Navy caliber. But that said I have yet to confirm this and have yet to locate a 1894 Tool chambered in .236 Navy. That said I don’t know how the 1894 Tool could be used to reload a Rimless cartridge.
The only caliber in the 1894 Tool in other than a Rimmed cartridge is a in the .401 Self Loading, which is a “Semi-Rimless” cartridge. So the tool still works for it.
Here is a article that discusses the Rimmed Vs Rimless .236 Navy.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/05/6mm-lee-navy-rimmed-semi-rimmed-or-rimless/
I have no idea whom at Winchester actually designed the cartridge, but with a lot of such design work it became the property of WRACo.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Thanks ,I have been looking for the loading tool you mention but given the fact that at the time Winchester made roughly 1700 sporting rifles there would likely be small if any demand as the military wouldn’t be hand loading. The cartridges are not easily sourced, so far I picked up a Winchester box wit 8 rounds and a UMC stripper clip with 5 rounds.
While it was cataloged for four years, I have yet to locate one and doubt very many were ever produced. I’ve talked with several well rounded collectors that don’t have one. But you never know when one will show up.
The Rimmed Cartridges are very scarce and prized by ammo collectors as well.
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
[email protected] said
Thanks ,I have been looking for the loading tool you mention but given the fact that at the time Winchester made roughly 1700 sporting rifles there would likely be small if any demand as the military wouldn’t be hand loading. The cartridges are not easily sourced, so far I picked up a Winchester box wit 8 rounds and a UMC stripper clip with 5 rounds.
Do you have the Military or the commercial box? The Military boxes have 20 rounds on stripper clips. How do you know it is a UMC clip? There is a difference between the Winchester and UMC clips. The Remington Lee is not exactly the same rifle and came in many calibers. I believe the Military rifles came in 45-70.
I have the commercial 2 piece ,20 round box, it has the label with the same graphics marked US NAVY, SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION IN CLIPS as shown in Shuey and Giles book on page 230 . It has a Green Label and the Sunburst which according to the book indicates Soft Point bullets. As far as the stripper clip, I can’t verify it is of UMC manufacture, it has PAT. OCT. 8 95 on the base and a spring steel metal tab that when turned 90 degrees releases the cartridges. The clip is loaded with 5 UMC stamped cupronickel jacketed bullets. I own Both a Remington Lee Sporting Rifle in 303 British and a Lee Navy in 30 US
David, the only real differences between the Winchester clips and the UMC clips are sometimes the UMC are much shinier and the Patent date is not struck as deep. The 2 piece clips are the hardest to buy. The valuable rounds are the early rimmed cases. 5 rounds and a clip run from $200 to $300 for the semi rimmed military rounds. Singles are worth about $30 ea. The rimmed ones can run over $300. I have a Military and a sporter.
If you don’t have Eugene Myszkowski’s book you need to buy it. I don’t know of another book but if you ever find one let me know. Eugene passed away not so long ago. His book is the best but these rifles were changing faster than any book could keep up with so it is not unusual to have a variation not in the book. One 20 round box without clips says for Machine Gun too.
I agree that Lee had his hands on the rifle but it was the Navy and Winchester that developed the round that the Navy used. UMC later made ammo for the military too. The Colt/Browning Model 1895 machine gun, also called the potato digger was mainly used by the Navy but the Army used some too.
I found this post interesting, as it reminded me when I ran across the Rimmed cartridge in this .236 Navy Cartridge, that was spoken here.
In conjunction with the 6mm Lee cartridge.
Anthony
Anthony, the rimmed cartridges bring a premium over the semi rimmed. Winchester brings a premium over UMC. Normal Military full metal jacket cartridges can bring between $20 to $40 a piece. The rimmed ones are 4 to 5 times that to someone that needs them. Commercial soft points don’t have the value of the Military ones. As far as I know no rifles were made for the rimmed experimental cartridges for sale to the Military or public.
Chuck said
Anthony, the rimmed cartridges bring a premium over the semi rimmed. Winchester brings a premium over UMC. Normal Military full metal jacket cartridges can bring between $20 to $40 a piece. The rimmed ones are 4 to 5 times that to someone that needs them. Commercial soft points don’t have the value of the Military ones. As far as I know no rifles were made for the rimmed experimental cartridges for sale to the Military or public.
Winchester manufactured a small number (21) high-wall Single Shot rifles in 236 USN rimmed.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Chuck said
Anthony, the rimmed cartridges bring a premium over the semi rimmed. Winchester brings a premium over UMC. Normal Military full metal jacket cartridges can bring between $20 to $40 a piece. The rimmed ones are 4 to 5 times that to someone that needs them. Commercial soft points don’t have the value of the Military ones. As far as I know no rifles were made for the rimmed experimental cartridges for sale to the Military or public.
Winchester manufactured a small number (21) high-wall Single Shot rifles in 236 USN rimmed.
Bert
That’s interesting. Are you sure they are the full rim not the semi rimmed? That would be a cool rifle. I posted this before but the 2 on the left are the full rimmed. I just noticed that the middle one is Milbank primed. That is the style primmer that was used in the first 1873 44 WCF box.
Chuck said
Bert H. said
Chuck said
Anthony, the rimmed cartridges bring a premium over the semi rimmed. Winchester brings a premium over UMC. Normal Military full metal jacket cartridges can bring between $20 to $40 a piece. The rimmed ones are 4 to 5 times that to someone that needs them. Commercial soft points don’t have the value of the Military ones. As far as I know no rifles were made for the rimmed experimental cartridges for sale to the Military or public.
Winchester manufactured a small number (21) high-wall Single Shot rifles in 236 USN rimmed.
Bert
That’s interesting. Are you sure they are the full rim not the semi rimmed? That would be a cool rifle. I posted this before but the 2 on the left are the rimmed.
Yes, I am positive that they were all the full rimmed variant. I have records that show that at least (6) of them were manufactured for testing purposes at the Naval Proving Ground (NPG) Indian Head in the year 1896.
2382 – SS – 041796 – 6MM USN TEST AT NPG INDIAN HEAD
5770 – SS – 021296 – RECHAMBERED FOR 6MM USN
12190 – SS – 041796 – 6MM USN TEST AT NPG INDIAN HEAD
12399 – SS – 021296 – RECHAMBERED FOR 6MM USN
67606 – SS – 041796 – 6MM USN TEST AT NPG INDIAN HEAD
67729 – SS – 041796 – 6MM USN TEST AT NPG INDIAN HEAD
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I only know of one Lee Navy book and the author died a couple years ago but I will look through it again and see if he documented any full rimmed rifles. If the rifles were accessible it would be easy to measure the chamber and tell. It’s clear that Winchester made some Lee Navy SS rifles. As I had stated before the rifles and ammo were a joint effort between Winchester and the Navy.
Chuck said
I only know of one Lee Navy book and the author died a couple years ago but I will look through it again and see if he documented any full rimmed rifles. If the rifles were accessible it would be easy to measure the chamber and tell. It’s clear that Winchester made some Lee Navy SS rifles. As I had stated before the rifles and ammo were a joint effort between Winchester and the Navy.
I had the opportunity to visually inspect one of the six rifles used at NPG Indian Head, and it was chambered for the rimmed cartridge. The Single Shot action (extractor system) will not function correctly with a non-rimmed cartridge (at least not without special modifications).
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I went through the first part of Eugene Myszkowski’s book. He says the first rifles were delivered in 1892 to the US Navy Torpedo Station in Newport, RI. The only Ser#’s he listed for the Win SS was 5770, 12190 and 12,399. But Winchester made ammo for the Lee project in:
32-70 .328″ bullet .554″ rim
236 USN .238″ bullet .517″ rim
6mm USN .244″ bullet .448″ rim Adopted.
.236 Luger .241″ bullet .540″ rim
6 mm Mauser .242″ bullet .476″ rim
.236 Remington .244″ bullet .550″ rim
6 mm Luger .241″ bullet .469″ rim
They also did some testing using the 30-40 Krag round. So who knows how many Win SS were actually used during the initial tests? Or how many barrels got swapped.
In 12/1/94 they started the development of the rimless cartridge. Actually a semi rimmed.
1/18/96 all the rounds were using the .244″ 112 grain bullets.
Bert, you of all people need one of these.
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