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1886 take down with indexing alignment mark
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August 13, 2020 - 6:21 pm
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My 1886 take down has a stamped mark on the bottom where the receiver and barrel assembly meet.  I was told Winchester didn’t do this and it devalues the rifle.  Is this correct?  The serial number is 143251.  I suspect the “NO SHOCK” pad was added by Abercrombie & Fitch, who supplied the black leather take down carrying case.  Thanks   Roger B

 

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August 13, 2020 - 6:32 pm
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Roger,

The indexing mark is definitely not something that Winchester did.  It was put there by a past owner.  The No-SHOC pad could have been installed by Winchester, as it was a special order option.  Do you have a CFM factory letter?  What is the caliber & barrel length of this rifle?

Bert

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August 13, 2020 - 7:58 pm
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Thanks Bert. Here’s the letter

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August 14, 2020 - 2:55 am
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rogertherelic said
Thanks Bert. Here’s the letter

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Roger,

Based on the factory letter, the NO-SHOC pad was installed after the fact.  It is an interesting Fancy Sporting Rifle though… lots of neat features.

Bert

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August 14, 2020 - 4:16 am
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The original owner purchased the gun for a safari and hunt in Africa.  I was fortunate to get the gun at an auction and met the grandson, who told me of his grandfather.  He was employed by U.S. Steel Co.  He was in charge of the Midvale Steel Plant and it’s production of bessemer steel when he retired in 1908. On his trip to Africa in 1914 he took an elephant, cape buffalo, a rhino and several other large game animals of the time.  I ask to get a letter from him about his grand father, but when it arrived it was mostly about the family name and of their prominence back east.  The family was never ‘gun oriented’, so when the grandson was in his mid seventies he put it up for auction.  That’s all I know. 

So, Just how much does the indexing mark lower the value?  Roger B

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August 14, 2020 - 2:49 pm
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Roger,

Only the individual buyer can tell you how much the index mark affects his/her desire to purchase the rifle. If you asked (10) different people, you are likely to get at least that many different answers. Personally, on a Model 1886 in that caliber and configuration, it would not bother me very much. I suspect that many other collectors would view it much like I would.,

Bert

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August 14, 2020 - 3:06 pm
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I’d try to get you to knock off at least seven dollars because of that index mark.  Maybe you could really confound people and gold inlay the index mark.

That is surely a beautiful rifle,  I’d love to see the A&F case.

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August 14, 2020 - 5:15 pm
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I’ve seen more than one model 1894 take down with an index mark.  I guess a lot of guys back then had the same idea.

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August 14, 2020 - 6:12 pm
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jban, Here you are:1886-TAKEDOWN-CASE-001.JPGImage Enlarger1886-TAKEDOWN-CASE-002.JPGImage Enlarger1886-TAKEDOWN-CASE-003.JPGImage Enlarger

I believe I made a severe mistake when I cleaned the case with saddle soap.  The strap was there, though worn.  The case was a dirty russet color and the red dust and dirt came off and the case turned an even black.  After the cleaning the strap completely disintegrated after a time.  My BAD!  I hate learning that way.  The only mark on the case is on the lid and that is “PATENTED” over “DEC. 17, 08”.  I was told that Abercrombie & Fitch dyed all their cases black.  This too may be incorrect information.  Thanks for asking, Roger B

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August 15, 2020 - 9:08 pm
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rogertherelic said
jban, Here you are:1886-TAKEDOWN-CASE-001.JPGImage Enlarger1886-TAKEDOWN-CASE-002.JPGImage Enlarger1886-TAKEDOWN-CASE-003.JPGImage Enlarger

I believe I made a severe mistake when I cleaned the case with saddle soap.  

The saddle soap may have not helped but leather gets very weak with age.  I have broke more than one sling just using it to lift a gun.  Now I don’t touch slings.  I clean with mild soap and a damp, not wet, rag.

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August 15, 2020 - 10:06 pm
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Folks,  Haven’t cleaned any old gun leather, but have cleaned and softened aged, original leather seats from late 1963 in one of my Chryslers.  Leatherique has a cleaner that is pH neutral, mild, and lifts dirt.  Then the preservative goes on and it softens and preserves.  It does not affect the original stitching, nor does it seem to adversely affect the leather structure even tho it is aged, dried, and trying to crack.  I no longer have that car, but an annual or biannual application worked near miracles.  Instructions (who reads those, anyway?) say to test in an inconspicuous spot.  My seats were black leather.  I would not know how tan leather products would look afterwards.  If I had an old sling or dirty case, I would try it after my experience with the leather seats.  Tim

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August 16, 2020 - 3:10 am
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I second the advice that perhaps Leatherique would be of benefit. I have used in for several years on the leather seating covers my Mercedes 450SL and BMW 635CSi. Both cars are between 40 and 35 years old. When applied correctly I believe that this product has been very benefitial in keeping the leather supple and well preserved. I use it on an old leather jacket as well. It is not inexpensive but for me well worth the cost in my opinion. I would not hesitate to apply it to any leather product. 

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August 16, 2020 - 1:37 pm
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  Roger, preserving old leather is an inexact science, don’t feel bad, I have had similar experiences. The original tanning process varies from good to very bad, old processes (1800’s) are not the same as 1900’s. Today some new foreign leather goods have been tanned using poor processes. Before you buy leather smell it, if it stinks, it’s alive and only bad things can happen! T/R 

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August 16, 2020 - 9:02 pm
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TR said
  Roger, preserving old leather is an inexact science, don’t feel bad, I have had similar experiences. The original tanning process varies from good to very bad, old processes (1800’s) are not the same as 1900’s. Today some new foreign leather goods have been tanned using poor processes. Before you buy leather smell it, if it stinks, it’s alive and only bad things can happen! T/R   

Something like cow urine?

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August 16, 2020 - 10:13 pm
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Leather is one of the most confounding materials that we all have to deal with.  After all these years there are no absolute answers.  The worst thing about it all is a lot of time any treatment that has been done by someone in the past can take years to show if it was wrong. 

A good friend who was a conservator used to put up with all of my questions about any thing or process that has come up that is the “right” one and up until he passed the answer was always “no.”  One thing that he impressed on me is that often it isn’t just the drying out that causes the fatal problem it is the breaking down of fiber either because of mechanical reasons, ie. bending or chemical action on the fibers that cause them to break down or microbial damage done by critters who can tolerate the tanning chemicals and find a meal.  One thing to remember is that “once it’s cracked it will never go back.”

One method of preserving I found to work with the things I’ve done it on is cleaning only with water,  in the form of steam.  I use a clothing steamer and then mop what comes up off with old cotton undershirt material.  I don’t get excessive with it.  After that I preserve with a very small amount of lanolin/beeswax.

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