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November 19, 2006
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Anthony said
Rick C said
Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
Tony
Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone.
Rick,
I can truly appreciate you’re kind words for Bob, and the others that you mentioned, as I can say the same and am in full agreement with you!
Tony
I echo Rick and Tony’s comments about Bob’s tremendous knowledge and helpfulness.
On the topic of this 14 inch M1873, I’ve never owned a rifle or carbine with barrel under 16 inches so can’t claim extensive knowledge. So – does a 14 inch carbine still require specific ATF clearance – even though it has antique status?
July 2, 2023
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Rick C said
Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
Tony
Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone.
Yes Bob is literally THE 1873 man!
God bless him, Bert and others including Micheal Puzio who keep meticulous records and ensure this sport stays reputable by verifying and checking to see if guns are the “Real Mcoy”. We owe them a great debt and I love their passion for these guns!
Yes Ricky… I too can think of a couple crows off the top of my head that roost up here in Canada who sell and circulate fraudulent guns and definitely bring WACA and the sport in disrepute by faking CODY letters and misleading new buyers who do not have access to the “boys” on WACA to help and guide them, and provide another and pairs of eyes before making a big purchase
March 14, 2022
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steve004 said
Anthony said
Rick C said
Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
Tony
Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone.
Rick,
I can truly appreciate you’re kind words for Bob, and the others that you mentioned, as I can say the same and am in full agreement with you!
Tony
I echo Rick and Tony’s comments about Bob’s tremendous knowledge and helpfulness.
On the topic of this 14 inch M1873, I’ve never owned a rifle or carbine with barrel under 16 inches so can’t claim extensive knowledge. So – does a 14 inch carbine still require specific ATF clearance – even though it has antique status?
Steve, my thoughts are no it doesn’t need special clearance. it was always my understanding that the BATF considers any firearm Proven pre-1899, as an antique and they don’t deal with it. Personally, if I have a rifle with a barrel less than 16”, I want proof of a BATF letter or Cody letter or some form of provenance from the factory or historical document proving same so that I don’t find out the hard way.
I guess if you’re transferring, selling, purveying, etc. the onus is on the owner to make sure, and then the buyer or person in possession. Bert or Bob or someone can probably confirm or correct me.
Rick C
November 19, 2006
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Rick C said
steve004 said
Anthony said
Rick C said
Anthony said
Bob,
Those are nice examples to see as a reference.
Thanks for posting it!
Tony
Great opportunity for me to give a shout out to Bob(1873man). He has helped me immensely over the years with questions and concerns about the model 1873, and saved me more than once dealing with undesirable sellers with fake guns, forged serial numbers, letters, etc.
I can say the same for Bert, JWA, and others on various models. Just another good reason for anyone new thinking of joining WACA. You will save money just for the above alone.
Rick,
I can truly appreciate you’re kind words for Bob, and the others that you mentioned, as I can say the same and am in full agreement with you!
Tony
I echo Rick and Tony’s comments about Bob’s tremendous knowledge and helpfulness.
On the topic of this 14 inch M1873, I’ve never owned a rifle or carbine with barrel under 16 inches so can’t claim extensive knowledge. So – does a 14 inch carbine still require specific ATF clearance – even though it has antique status?
Steve, my thoughts are no it doesn’t need special clearance. it was always my understanding that the BATF considers any firearm Proven pre-1899, as an antique and they don’t deal with it. Personally, if I have a rifle with a barrel less than 16”, I want proof of a BATF letter or Cody letter or some form of provenance from the factory or historical document proving same so that I don’t find out the hard way.
I guess if you’re transferring, selling, purveying, etc. the onus is on the owner to make sure, and then the buyer or person in possession. Bert or Bob or someone can probably confirm or correct me.
Rick –
What puzzles me is the ATF list:
Section III – Firearms removed from the provisions of the National Firearms Act and
classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the
Gun Control Act of
1968………………………………………………………………………………………. 22
Here’s an excerpt and some of these Model 1873’s have antique serial numbers:
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32, S/N 637480, having 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32 WCF, S/N 382028, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32 WCF, S/N 637429B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .32-20 WCF, S/N 695081 B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44, S/N 131590A, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 85502, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 190542B, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 526199, with 13 1/2-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 604237B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 688628B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 691388B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 710976B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 717912 B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 718977B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 88502, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 579080B, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 612999B, with 14-inch barrel.
November 19, 2006
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Here’s some more:
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 719510B, with 14-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1873 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N ATF-33300-252, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1876, cal. .45-70, Northwest Mounted Police Carbine, S/N 46198, with an 8-
inch barrel, no magazine tube.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .25-35, S/N 104783, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 75808, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .44 WCF, S/N 103509, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1885 carbine, cal. .44-40 WCF, S/N 102429, with 15-inch barrel.
Winchester, Model 1886, cal. .33 WCF, S/N 149317A, with 14-inch barrel.
There is a Model 1885 carbine listed here with antique status. But tangentially what interested me the most was a Model 1886 with a 14-inch barrel! Of course it wouldn’t have antique status but a 14 inch barrel! And obviously determined to be original 🙂
Oh, and a Model 1876 Northwest Mounted Police Carbine – in .45-70 – with an 8 inch barrel! No magazine tube. Was it ever there? I’d be fascinated to know more details about this carbine.
December 9, 2002
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Steve,
I also was looking at that list and didn’t see the OP’s firearm listed.
I’m in agreement with the arguments here as the OP, having documentation, verifying the status from Cody as the Pre-1899 Antique M-1873 left the factory as is, with the 14 inch barrel, should be automatically on the C & R List! IMHO!
With the proper documentation verifying that it hasn’t been altered or a cut down version of a longer barreled rifle.
It’s a collectable antique rifle and nothing more. For some reason, any firearm shorter than the 16 inch barrel, the ATF seems to have an issue with. We as a collectors group, would most certainly like to see the ATF, make some changes in these regards.
The other issue is the different and vague answers when trying to find out more from this Government agency. Some may consider it a grey area, but it needs to be addressed.
We have an honest collector here trying to get some answers and all we can do is suggest he goes to the ATF, and get this thing on the list, or at least exempt with current paper work!
Tony
March 14, 2022
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To elaborate further on my comments, that was the answer I got from an agent out of the field office in Bangor, Maine a few years back. You probably get a different answer from a different agent so…
Rick C
December 9, 2002
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Rick C said
To elaborate further on my comments, that was the answer I got from an agent out of the field office in Bangor, Maine a few years back. You probably get a different answer from a different agent so…
Agreed Rick!
In speaking with different agents and getting different answers, it would be nice to get one that was willing to work with the owner involved in search of getting things properly straightened out, but I feel unfortunately with delays and getting passed off by most, it’s a long and arduous trail!
A paper trail of emails, might be the way to go, and getting the right work accomplished, MIGHT get done!
Tony
November 19, 2006
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Anthony said
Steve,
I also was looking at that list and didn’t see the OP’s firearm listed.
I’m in agreement with the arguments here as the OP, having documentation, verifying the status from Cody as the Pre-1899 Antique M-1873 left the factory as is, with the 14 inch barrel, should be automatically on the C & R List! IMHO!
With the proper documentation verifying that it hasn’t been altered or a cut down version of a longer barreled rifle.
It’s a collectable antique rifle and nothing more. For some reason, any firearm shorter than the 16 inch barrel, the ATF seems to have an issue with. We as a collectors group, would most certainly like to see the ATF, make some changes in these regards.
The other issue is the different and vague answers when trying to find out more from this Government agency. Some may consider it a grey area, but it needs to be addressed.
We have an honest collector here trying to get some answers and all we can do is suggest he goes to the ATF, and get this thing on the list, or at least exempt with current paper work!
Tony
Tony – but given the antique status, does it even need to be on the C&R list at all? Technically, it is an antique rifle, not a C&R or modern rifle. C&R rules shouldn’t apply.
Back to the list I posted earlier, I should have highlighted that the 14 inch barreled Model 1886 they list, is a .33. That caught my attention. I sure would like to know more about that rifle including its other features, who bought it, what it was used for etc. Anyone here have it?
May 2, 2009
Online
The only issue with I can see with just using antique status as a legal short gun is if it was a fake gun. You buy or sell one that has been modified by shortening the barrel or you have the serial number restamped, now you my have a legal issue with it. That is what the ATF does when they inspect the gun is to make sure it was originally a short gun. Having the ATF clearance letter would make me sleep better.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
January 8, 2025
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So I what I’m understanding here is… it’s not a firearm, so no issues. Unless it happens to be a firearm in which case without ATF exemption, it’s a prison sentence.
December 9, 2002
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MidwestCrisis said
So I what I’m understanding here is… it’s not a firearm, so no issues. Unless it happens to be a firearm in which case without ATF exemption, it’s a prison sentence.
I would not classify this as not being a firearm, but an “Antique Firearm”, as the Pre-1899 serial number indicates! If it’s gun, rifle, carbine and or shoots ammunition out the end of a barrel, isn’t that a Firearm?
Not looking for an argument, but the 14 inch barrel seems to make all the difference as it’s shorter than the 16 inch barrel, SBR, (short barrel rifle), parameters that the ATF, consider a very important issue here.
1873man said
The only issue with I can see with just using antique status as a legal short gun is if it was a fake gun. You buy or sell one that has been modified by shortening the barrel or you have the serial number restamped, now you my have a legal issue with it. That is what the ATF does when they inspect the gun is to make sure it was originally a short gun. Having the ATF clearance letter would make me sleep better.
Bob
I am in agreement with Bob here. With that said, the OP, (owner), has the Cody letter showing the configuration it’s in, but not the ATF Paper Work, showing exactly what Bob is referring to.
Tony
November 19, 2006
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In the event the owner has a Cody letter confirming the short barrel status, if that is sent in with the carbine to the ATF for inspection, I wonder if they would confirm the letter status with the museum? I suspect ATF is aware of faked museum letters. If one is purchasing one of these short rifles or carbines and it has a museum letter, it would be very wise due diligence to confirm the letter is authentic.
December 9, 2002
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Steve,
Here’s the letter previously posted by Bob, 1873man, sent to him by the OP! I did find it interesting that the serial number application date wasn’t available as it stated near the top of the letter.
Tony
November 19, 2006
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Anthony said
Steve,
Here’s the letter previously posted by Bob, 1873man, sent to him by the OP! I did find it interesting that the serial number application date wasn’t available as it stated near the top of the letter.
Tony
Tony – I also found it interesting that the museum did not have the serial number application date available. However, given they do state the shipping dates, at least there is no question about the carbine’s antique status.
May 2, 2009
Online
I posted this earlier and this looks like the clearance letter although its a copy from what see handwritten on the top. Block 19 is checked and says it legal to own as long as state and local regulations don’t forbid it. The ATF would check with Cody to verify its configuration and I had already checked with Cody as well and it said it a 14″ carbine so the serial number comes back good.
Bob
Correction, I think I got this confussed with the clearance letter, This looks like the tax application to the past owner.
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
March 14, 2022
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MidwestCrisis said
So I what I’m understanding here is… it’s not a firearm, so no issues. Unless it happens to be a firearm in which case without ATF exemption, it’s a prison sentence.
1873man said
I posted this earlier and this looks like the clearance letter although its a copy from what see handwritten on the top. Block 19 is checked and says it legal to own as long as state and local regulations don’t forbid it. The ATF would check with Cody to verify its configuration and I had already checked with Cody as well and it said it a 14″ carbine so the serial number comes back good.
Bob
Correction, I think I got this confussed with the clearance letter, This looks like the tax application to the past owner.
Pending my state and local regulations, I personally would have no issues possessing or selling this antique status trapper. The Cody letter and other documentation appears legitimate, and the serial numbers don’t look messed with(forged).
As far as the legalities that apply to an owner/seller, there would have to be “intent” to defraud which in most legal systems is a necessary component to secure a criminal conviction, or certain civil liabilities. I definitely don’t see that here. Nice trapper. Wish it was mine!
Rick C
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