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Chuck said
If you are having bullet set back you need more neck tension. I would try a smaller expander. This will increase the force on the bullet. Hornady and others make an universal expander die body. You will then need the correct expander that is at least .002″ smaller than the one you are using. I don’t crimp most of the time, straight wall or bottle neck. I shoot a 6.5 with a 140 gr. bullet at 2800 fps that the crimp groove is about 1/4″ out of the case neck. I seat bullets where the barrel likes them. Recoil is what causes set back. I use toilet paper to fill large voids when using smokeless in black powder loads but I doubt it will stop the bullet. Fillers get rid of the excess space and keeps the powder down at the primer. Many factory loaded calibers are not full of powder. A light crimp may cause a slight groove in the bullet but I haven’t had any accuracy problems. This groove is not long enough to cause a problem. It’s just a scratch.
32wcf is a bit different than your 6.5. Do you load 32wcf for a lever gun? Unlike your bolt gun, bullets are seated to function in the action not off the rifling. If seated to long (i.e. to the upper groove) the cartridge will get stuck going from the magazine into fhe chamber. With the winchester mold this means seating bullets almost to the ogive. Also unlike your 6.5 the 32wcf does not use an expander ball. Case mouths are flared like a pistol cartridge. Again, setback is not the issue. Pressure from the magazine spring is what pushes bullets down in the case. I had a stash of commercial .32cal bullets that could be crimped in the groove and oal was acceptable to function. I believe the lyman mold I am looking for will work the same.
TXGunNut said
What dies are you using, Mark? Crimp is indeed critical but is useless without adequate neck tension. Neck tension is something the RCBS Cowboy dies seem to do well. As you may be able to see in the above pics I apply a very slight crimp, very little beyond straightening out the flare necessary for starting the bullet into the case. . It almost appears to be a taper crimp. The pic is also a good illustration of why I now trim the cases in this lot of brass because the lengths were not uniform. When depending on a slight crimp the case length must be uniform.
Mike
Hey Mike,
I’m using 1960s RCBS dies. They work as they should. I’m in complete agreement about neck tension. The mandrel section of the flare die is .306 below the portion that actually flares the case mouth. Bullets are sized .313 so plenty of neck tension. The thing with the winchester mold is that the front driving band is probly half what your noe is. The Win. bullet is designed to be seated so the top band is in the case and the bullet compressing black powder. In this case neck tension and crimp are much less important in keeping the bullet from pushing into the case.
Mark
November 7, 2015
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Mark-
Just checking, that’s actually a bit tighter in the neck that what I get with my Cowboy dies. I like the old dies too, only have one set of that generation and it’s for .348. I really like the Cowboy dies, have several sets now and have even replaced regular RCBS dies with them. I was looking at the drive bands on the old Winchester mould and you’re right, the rounded drive bands and wider grease grooves are not optimal for smokeless loads. That may help explain why the bullets from my antique 32-40 mould don’t perform very well over smokeless.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Mark-Just checking, that’s actually a bit tighter in the neck that what I get with my Cowboy dies. I like the old dies too, only have one set of that generation and it’s for .348. I really like the Cowboy dies, have several sets now and have even replaced regular RCBS dies with them. I was looking at the drive bands on the old Winchester mould and you’re right, the rounded drive bands and wider grease grooves are not optimal for smokeless loads. That may help explain why the bullets from my antique 32-40 mould don’t perform very well over smokeless.
Mike
Here is the Winchester bullet
mark minnillo said
32wcf is a bit different than your 6.5. Do you load 32wcf for a lever gun? Unlike your bolt gun, bullets are seated to function in the action not off the rifling. If seated to long (i.e. to the upper groove) the cartridge will get stuck going from the magazine into fhe chamber. With the winchester mold this means seating bullets almost to the ogive. Also unlike your 6.5 the 32wcf does not use an expander ball. Case mouths are flared like a pistol cartridge. Again, setback is not the issue. Pressure from the magazine spring is what pushes bullets down in the case. I had a stash of commercial .32cal bullets that could be crimped in the groove and oal was acceptable to function. I believe the lyman mold I am looking for will work the same.
What ever the cause. You need more neck tension. When sizing you are reducing the neck diameter to hold the new bullet. But in your case not enough. I shoot a lot of lever guns from 22 to 50 cal and I crimp where I want and I don’t have issues. I always build a dummy to make sure it will cycle. While doing this I find my max OAL. Then I experiment on shorter OAL’s to see if I can get a better group. I just don’t let the crimp groove get in my way.
As far as the bolt versus the lever, all guns have a max OAL. This is for cycling through the action or fit in the chamber as well as the magazine in the bolt action.
You are right. I don’t shoot the 32 in a lever action but I do load the 32 for pistols. Flaring/expanding too much? Is the static spring tension pushing the bullets in or only when firing? Maybe you need to pour a larger diameter bullet?
Just figured I would post that I found the mold I was looking for. The Saeco 322 is a 2 lube groove, flat base bullet with crimp groove of 118 grains. The nose of the bullet is a bit shorter than either the winchester or NOE bullet (thanks Mike hupp for sending your mold) so with smokeless powder, the crimp groove can be used, there is no bullet push back, and coal fits in my 73s, 92s, and colt lightning. Thanks all.
Left to right NOE, Winchester, Saeco
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