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Tom, all my 48T target rifles have the RH mounted 48T and were made between 1930 and 1931. I do have a couple of very early Sporters with the LH mounted 48T. I do have some A model targets with 48F’s. Also have 2 very early sporters with 48T’s on LH side.
Steve
seewin said
Tom, all my 48T target rifles have the RH mounted 48T and were made between 1930 and 1931. I do have a couple of very early Sporters with the LH mounted 48T. I do have some A model targets with 48F’s. Also have 2 very early sporters with 48T’s on LH side.Steve
Steve,
I don’t collect sporters, and to be honest I didn’t consider them when I started this thread. Your statement makes me wonder if Winchester used the LH mount sights pretty much exclusively on sporters and used the RH on target models. I’m making this assumption partly based on your observations and the rifles in hand. The RH mount would put the the peep closer to the eye, and I know target rifles were supplied with a smaller aperture peep than the sporters. It seems I remember in one of the catalogs, Lyman recommended that if you were using the sporter for hunting to remove the peep and and just use peep the opening.
Most of my prewar 52s have a variety of rear sights: 48J, Vavers, Marbles-Goss, 82A, etc.. So I don’t have much to compare to. I have only one pre-ww2 with a 48f. It’s a very late prewar serial# 65578B. The receiver was serial #’ed 11/28/41, barrel date is 38. I think it may actually a prewar-postwar rifle. It has the blued front sling swivel base and swivel instead of nickel.
Thoughts?
tom in michigan said It seems I remember in one of the catalogs, Lyman recommended that if you were using the sporter for hunting to remove the peep and and just use peep the opening.
He did indeed, & also advised using his tang sights with the turn-down peep in the “down” position, & illustrated them that way in the cat. The reason he named his original tang sight the “Combination” sight (long before it was given a number) was that it was supposed to provide the shooter with two choices of aperture, the larger for hunting, the smaller for target shooting. But few users heeded this advice, which is why the turn-down is often found stuck fast in the “up” position.
tom in michigan said
seewin said
Tom, all my 48T target rifles have the RH mounted 48T and were made between 1930 and 1931. I do have a couple of very early Sporters with the LH mounted 48T. I do have some A model targets with 48F’s. Also have 2 very early sporters with 48T’s on LH side.
Steve
Steve,
I don’t collect sporters, and to be honest I didn’t consider them when I started this thread. Your statement makes me wonder if Winchester used the LH mount sights pretty much exclusively on sporters and used the RH on target models. I’m making this assumption partly based on your observations and the rifles in hand. The RH mount would put the the peep closer to the eye, and I know target rifles were supplied with a smaller aperture peep than the sporters. It seems I remember in one of the catalogs, Lyman recommended that if you were using the sporter for hunting to remove the peep and and just use peep the opening.
Most of my prewar 52s have a variety of rear sights: 48J, Vavers, Marbles-Goss, 82A, etc.. So I don’t have much to compare to. I have only one pre-ww2 with a 48f. It’s a very late prewar serial# 65578B. The receiver was serial #’ed 11/28/41, barrel date is 38. I think it may actually a prewar-postwar rifle. It has the blued front sling swivel base and swivel instead of nickel.
Thoughts?
Tom, I really don’t think sight radius on left or right side sights is any different. Mounting holes look to me like they line up directly left to right side. I think the LH location is just a bit handier to use for a right handed shooter with a right handed bolt rifle. You can adjust sights while still holding rifle. That is why all modern sights for the most part adjust from LH side. The 2 early sporters I have with a LH 48T are both pre production rifles. In fact, they are in the mid 26XXX range and way before actual production began for the general public. I don’t think a 48T was ever used on a later production sporter. I know Houze lists the 48T as used on these production rifles, I don’t believe it ever happened, and if so there couldn’t have been over a handful. I own 33959, which is the 2nd earliest production sporter that I have recorded over the past 30 years. This rifle although well used, is dead nuts original and has a 48F. Furthermore, it is my opinion that very soon after the 48T was moved to the LH mounting, it was very quickly given the 48F model designation by Lyman.
Steve
seewin said
tom in michigan said
seewin said
Tom, all my 48T target rifles have the RH mounted 48T and were made between 1930 and 1931. I do have a couple of very early Sporters with the LH mounted 48T. I do have some A model targets with 48F’s. Also have 2 very early sporters with 48T’s on LH side.
Steve
Steve,
I don’t collect sporters, and to be honest I didn’t consider them when I started this thread. Your statement makes me wonder if Winchester used the LH mount sights pretty much exclusively on sporters and used the RH on target models. I’m making this assumption partly based on your observations and the rifles in hand. The RH mount would put the the peep closer to the eye, and I know target rifles were supplied with a smaller aperture peep than the sporters. It seems I remember in one of the catalogs, Lyman recommended that if you were using the sporter for hunting to remove the peep and and just use peep the opening.
Most of my prewar 52s have a variety of rear sights: 48J, Vavers, Marbles-Goss, 82A, etc.. So I don’t have much to compare to. I have only one pre-ww2 with a 48f. It’s a very late prewar serial# 65578B. The receiver was serial #’ed 11/28/41, barrel date is 38. I think it may actually a prewar-postwar rifle. It has the blued front sling swivel base and swivel instead of nickel.
Thoughts?
Tom, I really don’t think sight radius on left or right side sights is any different. Mounting holes look to me like they line up directly left to right side. I think the LH location is just a bit handier to use for a right handed shooter with a right handed bolt rifle. You can adjust sights while still holding rifle. That is why all modern sights for the most part adjust from LH side. The 2 early sporters I have with a LH 48T are both pre production rifles. In fact, they are in the mid 26XXX range and way before actual production began for the general public. I don’t think a 48T was ever used on a later production sporter. I know Houze lists the 48T as used on these production rifles, I don’t believe it ever happened, and if so there couldn’t have been over a handful. I own 33959, which is the 2nd earliest production sporter that I have recorded over the past 30 years. This rifle although well used, is dead nuts original and has a 48F. Furthermore, it is my opinion that very soon after the 48T was moved to the LH mounting, it was very quickly given the 48F model designation by Lyman.
Steve
Steve,
This discussion has been informative and a bit confusing at the same time. The information Lyman provided over this sights period of use, seems to muddy the waters. The empirical evidence seems to be more straight line. Well, I guess the thing to do is keep our eyes open, and keep looking for more empirical evidence regarding the chronology for the use of this sight.
Your input has helped answer some of the questions I had. I’ve only been collecting these (52s) for about 15 years. So I’m still a bit of a novice.Thanks for all your input on the subject, and for sharing what you’ve learned.
Tom
The Lyman 48 started out with the windage scale facing the rear. With the “B” version, it faced forward, “C” version also.
My reference is Brophy’s 1903 Springfield book, has a good section on Lyman 48 sights. When adding the peep disc for target use, the windage scale is buried. Thus, when they dropped the flip up element, they moved the scale.
I see the 48T in the above pictures has a 180 degree differently machined crane, with the scale facing forward, even though right hand mounted. That is really cool.
I have Model 52 Sporting 33648 with the left hand mounted 48F. I believe there is more room to work the bolt in this configuration.
seewin said
Erik, your Sporter is the earliest production Sporter that I have record of. Do you have any pics of it?Steve
Seewin:
Picture of the Sporter. Pre A, made 1935? I got this rifle to shoot, as to me it represents the best .22 sporting rifle that could be found. I feel kind of guilty hunting it, but I am careful. Just bagged a rabbit with it last weekend in the snow. It came to me with a junk Lyman sight on it, I got lucky on Ebay and found a perfect Lyman 48F.
Erik, beautiful rifle. Thanks for posting. Just wondering if you have ever checked the barrel date? Receiver was s/n’d July 1934.
Steve
Steve:
Barrel is dated 35 says “22LR” then a small triangular mark then “35” There is also the letters C W S reading the other way.
Erik Thomas said It came to me with a junk Lyman sight on it, I got lucky on Ebay and found a perfect Lyman 48F.
The base fits over the stock without inletting?
Erik, my Sporter 33959 also has a “35” dated barrel. By the way, the other letters on the barrel are C.M.S. . They stand for Chrome Moly Steel which Winchester advertised as “Winchester Proof Steel”.
Your stock should definitely have a cut out for a full block 48F. The one that has the relief machined for eliminating stock inletting is a much later sight.
Steve
tom in michigan said
Steve & clarence,Wow, a question I thought would be pretty straightforward sure got complicated! From the information provided
it sure seems like they went LH to RH back to LH. The picture of Big Larry’s rifle shows a speed lock rifle so 1930 or later,
with a RH mounted sight. Or maybe it went LH – RH – LH – RH?
It’s 1931. What makes it really cool is it has a heavy nickel steel bbl. Big Larry
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