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When did the lyman 48T sight become available for the Model 52?
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February 28, 2023 - 5:54 pm
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I recently purchased a model 52 with a Lyman 48T receiver sight. The receiver was serial #ed in 1928, and the rifle has a

28 barrel date. It has the standard wide rear sight dovetail in the receiver. The dovetail shows no signs of ever having an 82A rear

sight mounted on it.

I have a Lyman 48 sight brochure I believe is from 1929 that shows the sight being available. The line cut of the sight in the brochure

shows it mounted on a 52 with the large sight dovetail. I believe the brochure dates from 1929,because the form number has

the last two digits of 29.

I assume this is the year the brochure was created. This assumption comes from observing the form numbers on the four pre-ww2

Lyman full line sight catalogs I have: 1925,33,36,39. Each form number in the catalogs ends with the last two numerals that match the year

the catalog was dated.

The 1925 catalog does not show the 48T being available. The 1933 catalog does have it listed.

From the information I have it, appears that it became available some time in the 1926-29 period.

 Does anyone have a Winchester or Lyman catalog from that 26-29 period that shows the sight as available?

It would help knowing exactly when the sight became available,

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February 28, 2023 - 6:16 pm
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That’s a question I’ve tried to figure out myself.  Catalog #18, 1930 I think, shows & describes it as “newly designed to be mounted on the left side,” though the illustration shows it on the right side.  I think your ’29 flyer may be the earliest announcement of it; these flyers for new products were inserted into previously printed catalogs.  The “T” is also listed as an option in the ’29 WRA cat.  Nothing said about whether 52s supplied with that sight had round or flat-topped rcvrs, but I’d assume round.  If this catalog was actually prepared, say, in late ’28, that might mean the “T” was available by then.  Still, a long time for Lyman to get around to adapting a #48 to fit the 52.

Big Larry has a round top with a “T”, but don’t know DOM.

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February 28, 2023 - 7:25 pm
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I own several of the full round tops with 48T sights. They are all mounted on the RH side. I have never found a Winchester symbol number for such a combination, so assume this was most likely a special order option. Seems like they were made in batches. I have 4 that fall from 19459 to 19509, then 5 from 22065 to 22330. The earliest one I have seen 19360, and again, it had the 48T on the RH side. These all fall in late 1929 to mid 1930 receiver dates. I have no records of any RH 48T’s after that point. I have records of any RH or LH 48T being mounted on a flat top receiver. Of course, I’m sure Winchester would have done this on a special order basis. A factory installed receiver sight would most likely always be installed in the exact same location on the receiver. In fact, I have a 1934 Winchester blueprint specifying this location. I would guess that if the hole location matched the Winchester drawing and the stock relief clearance cut out looked factory, it would indicate that the sight was most likely installed from the factory.

I am certain the 48T was released at least by 1928. I have a Lyman #16 catalog dated 28 that shows it mounted on the LH side. Like previously mentioned, the description notes that it was recently designed to be mounted on LH side. 

Lastly, Winchester offered Symbol #5205 as a production model. It was listed as a flat top receiver with 48T rear sight. It was introduced in 1931 and discontinued in 1937.

Steve

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February 28, 2023 - 7:50 pm
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seewin said
 I have never found a Winchester symbol number for such a combination, so assume this was most likely a special order option.

  

In the ’29 WRA, listed as G5205R, with T “instead of regular rear sight.” 

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February 28, 2023 - 8:15 pm
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seewin

The rifle is serial # 15088, the receiver was numbered April 12-18 1928, barrel date 28. I assumed all 48T sights were mounted

on the right hand side of the receiver as this one is. The line cut in the Lyman 48 brochure also shows it mounted on the right side

of the receiver. The Lyman brochure states : ” No. 48-T Sight for Winchester Model 52, Now designed to be mounted on the right hand side

of the rifle giving longest possible sight radius when using a sight mounted on the receiver”. Maybe when it was first introduced it was

mounted on the left.

The 1925 Lyman catalog has no listing for a model 52 48 receiver sight. The 1929 48 sight brochure only lists the 48T for the model 52.

The 1933 & 36 catalogs list both the 48T and the 48J as available in the price list, but they only have an illustration of the 48J.

The 1939 catalog shows a 48J, 48JH, 48f, 48FH, but no 48T.

When I get a chance I’ll pull the rifle out and post some pictures of the rifle and the brochure.

.

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February 28, 2023 - 8:33 pm
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Here’s a picture of my M52 Speedlock with the Lyman 48-T. Found this rifle at the Big Reno Show a few years back. Like Mr. SEEWIN, I have had a few of these 48-T rifles. Both standard and heavy bbl. All were on special round top receivers. One had the crack of doom and was sold to a Forum member. These rifles are relatively scarce. Not a M52 collector any longer, but I have a very few left over. This one is my favorite.       Big Larry

 

NS-Heavy-Bbl.-M52.jpgImage Enlarger

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February 28, 2023 - 8:33 pm
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I have also heard of a very early rifle with a 48T that the owner swears is original to rifle. I have never personally handled it, so will reserve judgement. It is in the early 68XX range as I recall. 

I have always felt the 48T started out as a RH mounted sight and then was moved over the LH side at a later date. I also believe that shortly after it went to the LH side, it morphed into the 48F. I don’t have one of each in front of me, but they are identical as I recall. 

I have several of the 48 Brochures as well as all the catalogs from the #18 on up. I’m not sure when they started producing catalogs.

Steve

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February 28, 2023 - 8:53 pm
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Steve,

I’m sure Lyman like many other manufacturers of the period didn’t waste anything and continued to list it at least

until the inventory was gone. Could they have been using the 48W as a left hand mount receiver sight on the early 52’s?

I don’t know if the model 54/70 and model 52 receiver contours are the same but I suspect not. I only wonder about the earliest 48T’s being

left hand mount because the brochure says “now designed to be mounted on the right hand side” which implies the earliest ones mounted

on the left hand side like the 48W.

Also the rifle shown in the 48 sight brochure is a slow lock.

Tom

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February 28, 2023 - 9:00 pm
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tom in michigan said
I only wonder about the earliest 48T’s being left hand mount because the brochure says “now designed to be mounted on the right hand side” which implies the earliest ones mounteon the left hand side like the 48W.

  

Or that they were correcting what had been an error in the earlier cat.

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February 28, 2023 - 9:06 pm
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seewin said
I have also heard of a very early rifle with a 48T that the owner swears is original to rifle.

  

Examination of screw holes in rcvr might be a clue–whether blued or bright.  But that can be faked.

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February 28, 2023 - 9:24 pm
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tom in michigan said
Steve,

I’m sure Lyman like many other manufacturers of the period didn’t waste anything and continued to list it at least

until the inventory was gone. Could they have been using the 48W as a left hand mount receiver sight on the early 52’s?

I don’t know if the model 54/70 and model 52 receiver contours are the same but I suspect not. I only wonder about the earliest 48T’s being

left hand mount because the brochure says “now designed to be mounted on the right hand side” which implies the earliest ones mounted

on the left hand side like the 48W.

Also the rifle shown in the 48 sight brochure is a slow lock.

Tom

  

Tom, the receiver on the 70 is 1.348″ dia w/ .604″ C-C hole spacing for the receiver sight. The 52 is 1.230″ dia w/.590″ C-C hole spacing for receiver sight. Who comes up with those dimensions for sight mounting always baffles me.

The Lyman sight catalog actually states “newly designed for LH side”, not RH side.

Steve

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February 28, 2023 - 9:28 pm
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clarence said

seewin said

I have also heard of a very early rifle with a 48T that the owner swears is original to rifle.

  

Examination of screw holes in rcvr might be a clue–whether blued or bright.  But that can be faked.

  

Clarence, I’m not so sure that Winchester didn’t drill/tap after the receiver was blued since it was a special order. This way they could just pull a receiver that was blued and ready for assembly for the modification rather than track one entirely through the process which would have been a major delay since the receivers were manufactured in batches, and it would also have to be tracked clear through production. Thus the holes will be white rather than blued.

Steve

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March 1, 2023 - 4:06 am
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Steve,

Here are some pictures of My 52 serial #15088 IMG_1887.JPGImage Enlargerwith the 48T sight and the related material.

 

IMG_1875.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1877.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1879.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1882.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1883.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1870.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1872.JPGImage Enlarger

 

 

The marks in the dove tail flat are light reflections of the mill marks, there is no blue loss.

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March 1, 2023 - 4:34 am
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Tom, that is a beauty, and based on the blue in dovetail and the stock inletting, it sure looks like a factory job to me. 

That 9129 brochure you show is interesting also. My 1930 Lyman #18 catalog has the exact same picture and states “left hand” instead of right. I assume your brochure is from 1929. Perhaps the sights started on RH side, were changed to left and then back to right?? Or possibly there is a mistake on the 9129 brochure. See attached for my #18 catalog page. 

To complicate things further, attached also is a page showing the 48T from my #16 catalog dated 1928. 

Your thoughts?Catalog-16-1928.jpgImage EnlargerCatalog-18-1930.jpgImage Enlarger

Steve

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March 1, 2023 - 4:37 am
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tom in michigan said The marks in the dove tail flat are light reflections of the mill marks, there is no blue loss.  

As you said, no obvious indication a rear sight was ever installed.  Good evidence your rifle was one of the earliest fitted with a “T”; before the factory began making round-top rcvrs.

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March 1, 2023 - 4:43 am
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Well maybe I have the answer to which came 1st, the LH or RH. While looking through the loose price sheets in my #16 catalog, I found the attached addendum between them. It appears to me, that the 48T started on the LH side, was moved to the RH side and then back to the LH side. 

Thoughts?

Steve

10001.jpgImage Enlarger

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March 1, 2023 - 4:49 am
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seewin said
To complicate things further, attached also is a page showing the 48T from my #16 catalog dated 1928. 

  

Sure looks like Lyman’s original intention was left-side mounting.  Which for some inexplicable reason was switched to the right.  Right-side mounting was chosen for the original 48 designed for the ’03 Springfield, so perhaps Lyman considered that location more familiar to target shooters.

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March 1, 2023 - 1:02 pm
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Steve & clarence,

Wow, a question I thought would be pretty straightforward sure got complicated! From the information provided

it sure seems like they went LH to RH back to LH. The picture of Big Larry’s rifle shows a speed lock rifle so 1930 or later,

with a RH mounted sight. Or maybe it went LH – RH – LH – RH?

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March 1, 2023 - 4:05 pm
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seewin said
Well maybe I have the answer to which came 1st, the LH or RH. While looking through the loose price sheets in my #16 catalog, I found the attached addendum between them. It appears to me, that the 48T started on the LH side, was moved to the RH side and then back to the LH side. 

Thoughts?

Steve

10001.jpgImage Enlarger

  

Steve,

It’s interesting that you have never encountered a model 52 with the 48T mounted on the left hand side of the receiver. I’m sure you have looked at far more model 52’s than 90+% of model 52 collectors. Makes me wonder how many, if any are out there.

Tom

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March 1, 2023 - 4:21 pm
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seewin said
Tom, that is a beauty, and based on the blue in dovetail and the stock inletting, it sure looks like a factory job to me. 

That 9129 brochure you show is interesting also. My 1930 Lyman #18 catalog has the exact same picture and states “left hand” instead of right. I assume your brochure is from 1929. Perhaps the sights started on RH side, were changed to left and then back to right?? Or possibly there is a mistake on the 9129 brochure. See attached for my #18 catalog page. 

To complicate things further, attached also is a page showing the 48T from my #16 catalog dated 1928. 

Your thoughts?Catalog-16-1928.jpgImage EnlargerCatalog-18-1930.jpgImage Enlarger

Steve

  

Steve,

It’s also interesting that the full line sight catalogs have photographs while the brochure has a line drawing. From the photos it’s apparent that they did make at least one 48T rear sight that mounted on the left hand side of the receiver. I also noticed that the receivers in both photos are flat tops. It also looks like in the photo of the sight mounted on the right side of the receiver there is a filler in the dovetail.

Tom

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