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All,
I recently became interested in in some features of a Model 1886, .50 Express, vintage 1916, I own. I traded for this gun 40+ years ago because I had always been a little “Big Bore” crazy and this satisfied that illness to some degree. At the time I noticed the gun had been “butchered” by someone by drilling and tapping the barrel for a scope.
A few weeks ago in this Forum, in another topic, I mentioned I owned a rifle that had two proof marks on the barrel (the same as the one on the receiver), one having been drilled through by someone wanting to mount a scope, and a second proof mark applied in place of the ruined proof mark. I speculate this work was done at the factory, though no proof, and a Cody Letter obtained on this rifle does have an “R and R” entry not ruling this out. I am referring to the same rifle above.
My question ( if you were wondering when I was going to get to the point) is; What sort of telescopic sight might have been mounted on this gun back in 1916? I know the Germans had been putting scopes on rifles for quite a while and there was the Malcolm type of sight, but I have no clue as to what might have been the right scope for this gun at that time in history. The holes drilled in the barrel indicate to me it was intended for a somewhat longish scope, relative to present day scopes. Did Winchester have sporting telescopic sights at this time that might have worked? Thanks.
John
Something to think about………What year was the R&R done to it. If it was sent back to the factory for a scope it may be post 1916 which may open up more options.
Erin
Erin Grivicich said
Something to think about………What year was the R&R done to it. If it was sent back to the factory for a scope it may be post 1916 which may open up more options.
Erin
In all probability, it would have shipped with a Winchester A5 or one of their lesser power scopes. This was the best scope around that Winchester actually made. You could have one mounted on just about any Winchester of that time. Lots of them went on M52’s. Very expensive, sometimes exceeding the price of the rifle. An original scoped Winchester is a collectors prize. Post 1916, around 1927 or so, Winchester sold their scope rights to Lyman producing the famous Lyman 5A. Feckers came on board around 1925 using Winchester mounts. There were a few others, but the A5 and 5A pretty much dominated the scope market. The distance between bases was 6″ at that time period. Around 1933 or 1934 they went to the 7.2″ spacing. Unless you have it on paper, there are very few ways to prove originality. Big Larry
Winchester offered the A5, B3, B4, and B5 Telescopes. In my continuing survey of the Model 1885 Single Shot rifles, I have thus far recorded several hundred of them that letter with one of the aforementioned Winchester Telescopes. I would expect a factory scoped Model 1886 to have any one of those four telescopes on it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Big Larry said
Feckers came on board around 1925 using Winchester mounts. Big Larry
Actually, 1922 was Fecker’s first year in business, and he used Winchester and Stevens mounts in about equal numbers. Before Stevens sold out to NE Westinghouse in 1916, their double-micrometer rear mount was the best made in this country.
Bert H. said
Winchester offered the A5, B3, B4, and B5 Telescopes. In my continuing survey of the Model 1885 Single Shot rifles, I have thus far recorded several hundred of them that letter with one of the aforementioned Winchester Telescopes. I would expect a factory scoped Model 1886 to have any one of those four telescopes on it.
Bert
No ’85s fitted for Stevens mounts? I have a “.30 Govt.” barrel D&T for Stevens mounts, but have no way to date it. Before 1909, however, Stevens was the big name in American scopes, and even afterwards, until the sale (or sell-out!) referred to above, Stevens top-of-the-line 7/8″ dia. model was optically superior to anything else on the market, except something custom made.
I decided I should measure the distance between the bases. They measure 5 5/8″ apart, or rather the hole pattern does. Of course the scope was mounted only on the barrel so the scope must have been mounted well to the rear in the rings. And they had to use offset scope rings due to the top ejection of that rifle. Thanks for the info. I find it fascinating that someone would consider using a scope on that gun. Maybe bad eyes.
John
clarence said
No ’85s fitted for Stevens mounts? I have a “.30 Govt.” barrel D&T for Stevens mounts, but have no way to date it. Before 1909, however, Stevens was the big name in American scopes, and even afterwards, until the sale (or sell-out!) referred to above, Stevens top-of-the-line 7/8″ dia. model was optically superior to anything else on the market, except something custom made.
There are a small number that do letter with a Stevens Telescope, but very few in comparison to the number that letter with a Winchester Telescope.
Original Winchester Model 1885 barrels were either marked “30 U.S.” or “.30 ARMY”. The very small number Model 1885 barrels made in 30-06 were marked “.30 U.S.MOD.1906.”
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Original Winchester Model 1885 barrels were either marked “30 U.S.” or “.30 ARMY”. The very small number Model 1885 barrels made in 30-06 were marked “.30 U.S.MOD.1906.”Bert
It was one of those, just couldn’t remember without dragging it out. But I have seen the “.30 Gov’t” marking somewhere, perhaps not Winchester.
The Model 54 and pre-war Model 70 rifles were marked “.30 GOV’T’03.” and “.30 GOV’T’06.” I am not sure how Winchester marked the Model 1895 rifles in those same calibers, but I suspect it was the same.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
The Model 54 and pre-war Model 70 rifles were marked “.30 GOV’T’03.” and “.30 GOV’T’06.” I am not sure how Winchester marked the Model 1895 rifles in those same calibers, but I suspect it was the same.
Bert
Bert,
You are correct. I have a Model 1895 carbine from 1912 that is marked “.30 GOV’T’03”. I once had a 1924 Model 1895 rifle marked “.30 GOV’T’06” but traded it off a few years ago.
Don
clarence said
Actually, 1922 was Fecker’s first year in business, and he used Winchester and Stevens mounts in about equal numbers. Before Stevens sold out to NE Westinghouse in 1916, their double-micrometer rear mount was the best made in this country.
clarence said
Actually, 1922 was Fecker’s first year in business, and he used Winchester and Stevens mounts in about equal numbers. Before Stevens sold out to NE Westinghouse in 1916, their double-micrometer rear mount was the best made in this country.
In my collection I have Fecker # 619. Lowest number I have ever seen, but not the lowest number I have heard of. That was #333 belonging to Mr. Parson of Parsons Scope Service. Both scopes appear to be custom and are quite different. Both have Winchester Grasshopper mounts. Big Larry
Bert H. said
The Model 54 and pre-war Model 70 rifles were marked “.30 GOV’T’03.” and “.30 GOV’T’06.” I am not sure how Winchester marked the Model 1895 rifles in those same calibers, but I suspect it was the same.
Bert
That’s it–was shooting my 70 SG several weeks ago, and the marking stuck in my head, even though it’s a different cartridge. The .30-40 brl. is marked .30 US. Have a ’95 in the same, but it’s furthest back in my safe, so its marking will have to remain unknown until my executor digs it out.
Big Larry said
In my collection I have Fecker # 619. Lowest number I have ever seen, but not the lowest number I have heard of. That was #333 belonging to Mr. Parson of Parsons Scope Service. Both scopes appear to be custom and are quite different. Both have Winchester Grasshopper mounts. Big Larry
Fecker offered “custom” designed scopes in countless Rifleman ads, from his first one in ’22 nearly until he died. Hard to remember exact wording without looking it up, but it was to the general effect that whatever the customer wanted, he would build. Most other scope builders, such as Unertl, would probably have done the same thing if asked, but only Fecker went out of his way to say so openly. The other unusual element in his advertising was frequent offerings to upgrade older Fecker scopes, which usually meant installing larger objectives. (I have one of those, now fitted with a 1-1/2″ obj. not offered at the time the scope was originally built.)
During the time I was actively looking for them years ago, I never saw one as low as #619. Once had #745, mounted in a Winchester mount that had the grasshopper spring replaced with a plunger as Lyman later introduced. That and all but two were sold about 10 yrs ago.
Fecker moved his operation to Pittsburgh sometime after June, 1926, so any scope with the Cleveland address would have been made in ’26 or before. Pittsburgh-produced scopes are not so marked–he merely omitted the old address.
Thanks for the good info.
I had a couple that were upgraded, but all are gone now. I had a real nice 24X Champion, but I gave it to a friend. This is the only one I have left.
Thanks again, Big Larry
Big Larry said
Thanks for the good info.I had a couple that were upgraded, but all are gone now. I had a real nice 24X Champion, but I gave it to a friend. This is the only one I have left.
Thanks again, Big Larry
Looks like only way that one could be upgraded would be to have the dated & numbered card on which parallax settings for different ranges were recorded after it had been tested by a technician. This time consuming practice ended with Fecker’s death. Needless to say the vast majority have been lost; I’ve only heard of one that remained with the scope, and it was not for sale.
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