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Lyman Super Target
March 7, 2017
8:19 pm
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tom in michigan said
James,

 Your idea of Lyman adding the numeral one to the serial number for the Marine contract scopes, would explain their being out of sequence with the letter for my scope. It also makes sense when you factor in the references that indicate the USMC scopes were purchased in 1949. It seems plausible that Lyman was building scopes in the 7000 serial number range in 1949. If others with Parsons letters from that period would provide the information they have, it would help prove or disprove this theory.

 

Regards, Tom   

Do you know if scopes purchased by USMC were different in any way from standard production models?  If not, I don’t really see why any special handling or numbering would be necessary.

March 7, 2017
10:13 pm
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Clarence,
 
As you can tell from my earlier post, we have been thinking alike on the point you make.  However, the ideas posed seem to have some merit as well, how else could the 1949 made scopes in the 17000 range for the Marines have an earlier DOM than Tom’s 1951 9000 range scope, if they were not assigned a special block of numbers?    Also, I do not know of any differences in the typical commercial scope and those ordered by the Marines other than the USMC Property marking – so I hear you loud and clear on this point as well. 
 
Tom: 
 
I think it is plausible that the ideas posed might be correct as they do seem to fit together.  Yes, it would be nice for other people with Parson letters to come forward, especially with information for the subject period…but then there is still the latch-issue. 
 
The USMC 20x contract scope boxes have the new latch, while those like yours that were made later in the early 1950s still have the old latch.  Why?   One can say with some confidence that the Marines were mighty particular, and insisted on a more efficient fastening system for the scope containers, and they might likely be correct, but that’s still another mystery at this point.  It would be nice to know when the Lyman company started using the 2nd type latch for all of their wooden boxes, too.
 
Fun, huh?!
James
March 7, 2017
11:32 pm
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jwm94 said

…It would be nice to know when the Lyman company started using the 2nd type latch for all of their wooden boxes, too.
 
James  

Maybe they were pictured in post-war catalogs & price lists, but they are not even mentioned in the pre-war editions; a customer wouldn’t even know that a box was available.

March 7, 2017
11:44 pm
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One of the best parts of collecting is exchanging ideas, opinions, and observations with other collectors.

I am guessing if the USMC specified the second type latches for their boxes, Lyman or the contractor they may have used to manufacture the boxes, still had a good supply of the first type latches in inventory. This would explain the delay in using the second type latch for the commercial sales boxes.

A related question I have, does anybody have an idea when Lyman switched over to the metal boxes?

I have a friend who some time ago acquired a USMC marked Super Targetspot. I will contact him and see if still owns the scope. If he still owns it, I will try and get the serial # and how it is marked.

 

Regards, Tom

March 8, 2017
12:18 am
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tom in michigan said 

I have a friend who some time ago acquired a USMC marked Super Targetspot. I will contact him and see if still owns the scope. If he still owns it, I will try and get the serial # and how it is marked.

 

Regards, Tom  

Not just how marked, but anything non-standard about it.  If the marking has been done by an electric pencil (hate those things!), it happened after leaving Lyman.

Think the metal boxes arrived sometime in the ’70s.

March 8, 2017
3:33 am
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Add to the letter situation, even if the scope was bought by the US Govt. it would not show up as purchased by them. I had one marked USAFA. The box was also marked USAFA. Found out later that the letters stood for United States Air Force Academy. All the letter said was it was a 15X, with 0007 crosshairs ad was shipped in 1955. I spoke to Gil about it and he said they were usually marked after the fact, unless it was a large quantity order. I have also owned a few USMC marked scopes long gone and I do not have a record of their numbers.

I still own STS # 1036 that was shipped 4-29-1939 if that helps.   Big Larry

March 8, 2017
5:51 pm
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clarence said

jwm94 said

…It would be nice to know when the Lyman company started using the 2nd type latch for all of their wooden boxes, too.
 
James  

Maybe they were pictured in post-war catalogs & price lists, but they are not even mentioned in the pre-war editions; a customer wouldn’t even know that a box was available.  

Clarence,

Stroebel in his second book about sights and scopes shows a 1942 Lyman STS ad on page 370 that cites the wooden carrying case, but does not show a picture of one.  This same ad also indicates that the 25x was available at that time as well, vice the 1949 introduction that he shows in text for this power in both of his publications.  So, this is some good information as well.

James

March 8, 2017
6:29 pm
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tom in michigan said
One of the best parts of collecting is exchanging ideas, opinions, and observations with other collectors.

I am guessing if the USMC specified the second type latches for their boxes, Lyman or the contractor they may have used to manufacture the boxes, still had a good supply of the first type latches in inventory. This would explain the delay in using the second type latch for the commercial sales boxes.

A related question I have, does anybody have an idea when Lyman switched over to the metal boxes?

I have a friend who some time ago acquired a USMC marked Super Targetspot. I will contact him and see if still owns the scope. If he still owns it, I will try and get the serial # and how it is marked.

 

Regards, Tom  

I agree with your comments, and look forward to what you find out from your friend.  Here’s a quote from seewin that has some good information in it that includes info about the introduction of the metal case, along with the link t the thread:

“I have checked all my Lyman catalogs and scopes, and the closest date I can pin down for the introduction of the steel STS box is between 1966 and 68. My 1968 catalog list the STS as coming with the steel box. All earlier catalogs I have list the wood box. I also have a mint STS #25415 that is still in original wood box. This scope was presented to the 1966 Camp Perry National Smallbore Champion along with a factory engraved 52D Winchester. The scope and rifle both came from the original champion and have never been separated, so I am relatively sure Lyman was using the wood box up until at least mid 1966. This particular box is the typical late style wood box without the finger joint corners and it also has the more positive latches.”

http://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/question-about-model-70-van-orden-sniper-rifle/page-2/

James

March 9, 2017
2:01 am
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Not sure if this will help, but here is a picture of the STS boxes used in 1963. This picture is of a young Lones Wigger, taken at Camp Perry in June of 1963. He has just given notice that he is going to be a force to be reckoned with in smallbore competition for many years to come. Picture show’s him after winning both the National Championships in small bore Prone and Position. His winnings are shown in picture, and included a presentation Remington 40X International, a factory engraved Winchester 52D, and the 2 Lyman STS’s shown. Notice the STS boxes have the finger joint corners, and “draw” type latches instead of the previously used “swing” latches. 

Steve

 

10002-2.jpgImage Enlarger

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March 10, 2017
4:50 pm
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Steve, nice picture and great information that will surely help anyone that wants to research this issue, especially when Big Larry and Tom’s Gil Parson letters are included.

One member suggested that I try to contact Parson’s son, but the number I called resulted in an out of service message. 

Lones Wigger certainly did establishment himself as a champion to be reckoned with too!

James

 

UPDATE ADDED:  Just heard from the other member that gave me the number to Parson’s scope service, and it is now back in order, and they should be updating what we know about the Lyman records when they get the chance!

September 18, 2017
7:36 pm
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Resurrecting this old thread due to information that might be helpful toward determining the year of manufacture of Lyman Scopes. 

The Remington rifle model 37 and Lyman scope package, (and what a great package it is!), shown at the following GB link  http://www.gunbroker.com/item/695099458  might well have been produced the very same year.  The letter code on the rifle appears to be an “F” that indicates its year of manufacture is 1937, according to the reference that I just checked.  Also, the 12x Lyman STS has a serial number of 10435, and appears to be of the same period, indicating that it was manufactured in 1937 as well.  1937 was the first year that Lyman STS scopes were produced in the 10, 12, and 15 power, according to a Stroebel reference. 

I, too, have a Lyman STS in 12x with serial number in the 8,000 range married up to a Winchester Model 64 in .219 Zipper that was manufactured in 1937 as well.

James

September 18, 2017
8:46 pm
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I sold off most of my scopes, but I have a Targetspot # 2141, shipped 10-4-1936 with 3 point mounts, 10X with dot. No box.

Also, if any of you scope buffs are interested, I have Fecker # 619, too early for Mr. Feckers micro mts., it has Winchester spring mounts as on the A5. The scope is entirely different than any other Fecker I have ever seen.   Big Larry

DSCF0526.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF0530.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF0528.JPGImage Enlarger

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September 18, 2017
11:31 pm
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Hey Big Larry-

I’ve got a 1936 M70 Target rifle in 257 ROBERTS that just aching for a 1936 Lyman Targetspot.  Back rifle in the pic below (sorry for the crappy photo – it’s all I have handy)…

257-ROBERTS-Target-Rifles.JPGImage Enlarger 

SN of the M70 is 3339 and it’s one of the early ones with the integral front sight ramp (1st variation target rifle as Rule called them).  Decent shape considering how, shall we say, ‘uncommon’ these guns are… Even has an Albree keeper in the sling, provided as a standard accessory 1st year only (and subsequently an extra-cost option).  Albree’s patent drawing below:

Albree-Keeper-US2032342-0.jpgImage Enlarger

So let me know if you find that your ’36 Targetspot has somehow cloned itself in the back of the safe… Laugh

Cheers,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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September 19, 2017
1:28 am
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Louis Luttrell said
Hey Big Larry-

I’ve got a 1936 M70 Target rifle in 257 ROBERTS that just aching for a 1936 Lyman Targetspot.  Back rifle in the pic below (sorry for the crappy photo – it’s all I have handy)…

257-ROBERTS-Target-Rifles.JPGImage Enlarger 

SN of the M70 is 3339 and it’s one of the early ones with the integral front sight ramp (1st variation target rifle as Rule called them).  Decent shape considering how, shall we say, ‘uncommon’ these guns are… Even has an Albree keeper in the sling, provided as a standard accessory 1st year only (and subsequently an extra-cost option).  Albree’s patent drawing below:

Albree-Keeper-US2032342-0.jpgImage Enlarger

So let me know if you find that your ’36 Targetspot has somehow cloned itself in the back of the safe… Laugh

Cheers,

Lou  

Lou, I have but one M70 in my collection. It is a papered Van Orden Sniper from 1954. I don’t collect M70’s but this one was a gift.

BTW, my 1936 TS, has the logo printed upside down on the tube. Someone fell asleep when they stamped it. Nice rifles Lou. Something to be very proud of.  Thanks, Big LarryCopy-of-Van-Orden-Sniper-M70-001-1.jpgImage Enlarger

September 19, 2017
2:56 am
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Hi Big Larry-

Too funny… Maybe back in ’36 Lyman had not yet standardized which way was up???  You’re info on the scope SN and shipping date on your TS is very helpful.  Now I know what to look for…

Thanks,

Lou

P.S.  The bottom rifle in the pic above is a later pre-war M70 target rifle also in 257 ROBERTS (SN 50415).  That one is a ‘rescue’, meaning all original parts and all correct but put back together by me.  It was something of a mess when I bought the wreckage…  What the original owner had done to the stock would have considered a crime in some countries… Wink  I’m a fan of pre-war M70 targets b/c they are so hard to find (relatively speaking)….

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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November 8, 2017
2:03 am
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James L
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I own a Lyman 0-20 Super Targetspot, with a 4 digit SN 4541 any idea on the date of manufacture?

June 3, 2018
12:57 am
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Paul
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I just acquired a Tatgetspot in the wooden box. Where would I find the serial numbers for it ?

June 3, 2018
2:17 am
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Paul
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All I can find is a 81 stamped to the left of the patton. It a 15x

June 3, 2018
1:07 pm
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Paul said
All I can find is a 81 stamped to the left of the patton. It a 15x  

If that’s the only number marked on the tube, that must be it, and indicates that Lyman began with new serial numbers on this model, rather than continuing the series began with their 5A model.  When Gil Parsons, who bought all Lyman’s scope records, was still alive, you could have found out (for $25) the date of its construction. Now his son is sitting on the records, says he’s too busy to look up this info, but won’t sell the records to anyone who would make them available again–and I know for a fact that someone made him a fair offer.

June 3, 2018
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Paul, the Lyman serial numbers are typically very stamped very small. In fact on many of my mine, it requires a magnifying glass to make out the digits. Here are a couple of pictures of s/n’s located in different locations on the scope. 

SteveDSC_0894.jpgImage Enlarger57.jpgImage EnlargerDSC6500.JPGImage EnlargerDSC_1866.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_9167.JPGImage Enlarger

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