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I recently purchased an original Lyman Model 21 rear sight, marked “DA” for an 1894 in 30WCF. I have an 1894, half-octagon, take-down in 30WCF, that I would like to install this sight on. I have been unable to find installation instructions or a template in order to locate the two holes I will need to drill and tap in order to install this sight. If anyone in the group has this info, and would be willing to share, I would be grateful.
November 7, 2015
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Unless this gun has already been modified I’ll respectfully suggest you find an 1894 already D&T’d for the 21. Drilling those two holes in an otherwise unmolested 1894 will reduce the value significantly and some dealers will not buy it for any price. Your gun, your call.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Unless this gun has already been modified I’ll respectfully suggest you find an 1894 already D&T’d for the 21. Drilling those two holes in an otherwise unmolested 1894 will reduce the value significantly and some dealers will not buy it for any price. Your gun, your call.
I second that.
But, of course, if of serial number 354,000 or later, if quality workmanship, how does one know if the work is factory or aftermarket?
TXGunNut said
Unless this gun has already been modified I’ll respectfully suggest you find an 1894 already D&T’d for the 21.
He won’t live long enough to do that. But I agree that to D&T a gun in nice cond. would be unwise. However, if the gun you have has already suffered the slings & arrows of outrageous fortune, maybe not, esp. if it’s outside the letterable range for ’94’s. It’s also important that the sight & the rcvr. match each other in condition, otherwise you create an obvious disparity. An expert gunsmith could use the sight itself for a template, but this is absolutely no job for an amateur.
mrcvs said
But, of course, if of serial number 354,000 or later, if quality workmanship, how does one know if the work is factory or aftermarket?
Yes, that’s what I was getting at. But the work still should be done by an expert familiar with antique Winchesters–it has to be done right the FIRST time.
mrcvs said
TXGunNut said
Unless this gun has already been modified I’ll respectfully suggest you find an 1894 already D&T’d for the 21. Drilling those two holes in an otherwise unmolested 1894 will reduce the value significantly and some dealers will not buy it for any price. Your gun, your call.I second that.
But, of course, if of serial number 354,000 or later, if quality workmanship, how does one know if the work is factory or aftermarket?
It is extremely easy to determine if it is factory or aftermarket… if you know what to look for. I have yet to find or see anyone that is capable of drilling & tapping the holes exactly like Winchester did.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
It is extremely easy to determine if it is factory or aftermarket… if you know what to look for. I have yet to find or see anyone that is capable of drilling & tapping the holes exactly like Winchester did.
What should one look for? This is something I don’t know. Perhaps this is worth describing in a new thread.
Not every piece of steel stamped Winchester is a rare collectible. I asked for a little help, and got four guys telling me what not to do with my rifle. You guys are welcome to stroke and pet any old rusty 30-30 you can get your hands on; I use mine to hunt Spring bear and blacktail deer. By the way, looking for factory blue in the threads of the sight mounting holes is not a secret.
Donald Spence said
Not every piece of steel stamped Winchester is a rare collectible. I asked for a little help, and got four guys telling me what not to do with my rifle. You guys are welcome to stroke and pet any old rusty 30-30 you can get your hands on; I use mine to hunt Spring bear and blacktail deer. By the way, looking for factory blue in the threads of the sight mounting holes is not a secret.
Keep in mind you did go to the Winchester Arms “Collectors” forum for answers, thus the reason for the variety of responses…
Donald Spence said By the way, looking for factory blue in the threads of the sight mounting holes is not a secret.
Not if that’s all it amounts to! Which could be faked anyway.
Like a previously said, I believe the sight itself could serve as a template, provided the gunsmith knew what he was doing. Or taking measurements from another ’94 with the sight mounted, but that might be hard to find.
November 7, 2015
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Donald Spence said
Not every piece of steel stamped Winchester is a rare collectible. I asked for a little help, and got four guys telling me what not to do with my rifle. You guys are welcome to stroke and pet any old rusty 30-30 you can get your hands on; I use mine to hunt Spring bear and blacktail deer. By the way, looking for factory blue in the threads of the sight mounting holes is not a secret.
I feel I was respectful in my response to your question, Donald. The modification you asked about is best carried out by an experienced gunsmith if at all. The folks who advised against it have likely seen botched attempts. As I mentioned above, it’s your gun but many of us feel we are only temporary custodians of these old guns and appreciate the restraint of the ones who owned our guns before us and made no modifications.
Feel free to disregard my advice, go ahead and drill a few holes through the barrel while you’re at it. As the number of unmolested guns go down the value goes up.
Welcome to the forum but I’m afraid you won’t learn much around here. You’re obviously much smarter than most of us.
Mike
Donald Spence said
Not every piece of steel stamped Winchester is a rare collectible. I asked for a little help, and got four guys telling me what not to do with my rifle. You guys are welcome to stroke and pet any old rusty 30-30 you can get your hands on; I use mine to hunt Spring bear and blacktail deer. By the way, looking for factory blue in the threads of the sight mounting holes is not a secret.
Donald, do what you wish with your gun. Although most collectors wouldn’t. Maybe someone that has a factory D&T gun can show you a pattern? Once installed correctly nobody will know the difference unless they take it off and look at the threads. Collectors do this, not only with the 21 but with any tang sight. Tang sights are used to cover extra holes.
Chuck said
Donald, do what you wish with your gun. Although most collectors wouldn’t.
Only thing that stands between me & putting one on a very well used ’94 I have is the money it would cost to buy the sight. Maybe Don will make me a deal on his if he decides not to use it.
Just my opinion only, but the Lyman 21 and Lyman 38 sights are cool looking on an 1894. I would much prefer either of these sights over the ugly looking Lyman 48 or Lyman 66 style sights if drilled/installed outside the factory. I personally don’t think the financial hit is as great either with a Lyman 21 or 38 vs the other types of receiver sights that require added mounting holes. Of course an 1894 that letters with a Lyman 21 or 38 is always an added bonus.
Don
January 26, 2011
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deerhunter said
Just my opinion only, but the Lyman 21 and Lyman 38 sights are cool looking on an 1894. I would much prefer either of these sights over the ugly looking Lyman 48 or Lyman 66 style sights if drilled/installed outside the factory. I personally don’t think the financial hit is as great either with a Lyman 21 or 38 vs the other types of receiver sights that require added mounting holes. Of course an 1894 that letters with a Lyman 21 or 38 is always an added bonus.Don
I like them as well, and think they add to the appeal on any of the various models. Here’s a few I have that all letter as such.
~Gary~
pdog72 said
I like them as well, and think they add to the appeal on any of the various models. Here’s a few I have that all letter as such.
Those are real beauties Gary. That Lyman 21 definitely adds some class and very cool that they all letter. I only have one 1894 with a Lyman 21 but it’s too late to letter. It’s a semi-deluxe 32-40 with set trigger–I posted photos in the other Lyman 21 forum thread. Does the top rifle in your photo letter with that style checkering as well?
Don
January 26, 2011
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deerhunter said
Those are real beauties Gary. That Lyman 21 definitely adds some class and very cool that they all letter. I only have one 1894 with a Lyman 21 but it’s too late to letter. It’s a semi-deluxe 32-40 with set trigger–I posted photos in the other Lyman 21 forum thread. Does the top rifle in your photo letter with that style checkering as well?
Don
Yes, it’s a “G” Carved 1886, ELW w/ 26″ barrel (22″ was standard), no rear slot, 1/2 mag TD. Weird one that most people walked by thinking it was wrong. Ran a search and it lettered………… made a trade + cash that day at the Denver Show. I’ve never really taken any photos of it but I need to. I’ve never seen another G carved rifle myself, but there must be others out there.
~Gary~
pdog72 said
Yes, it’s a “G” Carved 1886, ELW w/ 26″ barrel (22″ was standard), no rear slot, 1/2 mag TD. Weird one that most people walked by thinking it was wrong. Ran a search and it lettered………… made a trade + cash that day at the Denver Show. I’ve never really taken any photos of it but I need to. I’ve never seen another G carved rifle myself, but there must be others out there.
What a spectacular find! Would love to see photos of the entire rifle. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything other than H and I checkering other than in books.
pdog72 said
Yes, it’s a “G” Carved 1886, ELW w/ 26″ barrel (22″ was standard), no rear slot, 1/2 mag TD. Weird one that most people walked by thinking it was wrong. Ran a search and it lettered………… made a trade + cash that day at the Denver Show. I’ve never really taken any photos of it but I need to. I’ve never seen another G carved rifle myself, but there must be others out there.
The G style carving is covered in the Madis book in the Extras and Special Order Features section. According to Winchester advertising, there were 8 styles of checkering and carving which were available until after 1885 when another style (I style) was added. It indicates the G style was seldom ordered and is rare. I have never seen a gun with the G style and have only owned guns with H or I style. Now that photos are uploading without issue, it might be a good time to take a few photos for us. The Madis Book indicates the checkering/carving was first made available in the 1880 period.
pdog72 said
Yes, it’s a “G” Carved 1886, ELW w/ 26″ barrel (22″ was standard), no rear slot, 1/2 mag TD. Weird one that most people walked by thinking it was wrong. Ran a search and it lettered………… made a trade + cash that day at the Denver Show. I’ve never really taken any photos of it but I need to. I’ve never seen another G carved rifle myself, but there must be others out there.
That “G” style checkering has always appealed to me and your rifle appears nothing short of stunning!
Can you create a thread with many photographs featuring this wonderful rifle?
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