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California full buckhorn
July 29, 2019
9:55 pm
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Maine
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Can anyone advise what or if there’s a difference is in a 26A black powder California full buckhorn & a 26B smokeless. Dovetail size? Length? Elevator? Production period?

I can acquire a 26A black powder but it’s for my 1899 30WCF rifle.   

Thanks

AG

July 30, 2019
12:20 am
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AG said
Can anyone advise what or if there’s a difference is in a 26A black powder California full buckhorn & a 26B smokeless. Dovetail size? Length? Elevator? Production period?

I can acquire a 26A black powder but it’s for my 1899 30WCF rifle.   

Thanks

AG  

I think they are both about the same, but the black powder sight has no fine adjustment. The "B" is adjustable. Are you getting a good deal? The "A" can be very expensive.   Big Larry

July 30, 2019
4:02 am
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All Winchester sights will be 3/8" dovetail and the length will be the same as a standard Sporting rear. The black powder sight will be a taller sight than the smokeless version. For a 94 you would use the 26B smokeless version with the 1B elevator.

Bob

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July 30, 2019
1:51 pm
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Big Larry said

I think they are both about the same, but the black powder sight has no fine adjustment. The "B" is adjustable. Are you getting a good deal? The "A" can be very expensive.   Big Larry  

$80 if I want the 26A. I thought it was a good deal seeing as 26B are selling for $300+ on EBay & 26A even rarer.

AG

July 30, 2019
1:54 pm
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1873man said
All Winchester sights will be 3/8" dovetail and the length will be the same as a standard Sporting rear. The black powder sight will be a taller sight than the smokeless version. For a 94 you would use the 26B smokeless version with the 1B elevator.

Bob  

Thanks Bob. 

AG

July 30, 2019
3:46 pm
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AG said

$80 if I want the 26A. I thought it was a good deal seeing as 26B are selling for $300+ on EBay & 26A even rarer.

AG  

You are 100% correct. If it has nice condition, that price is a steal. Watch for the sight Police.   Big Larry

July 30, 2019
4:14 pm
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Big Larry said

You are 100% correct. If it has nice condition, that price is a steal. Watch for the sight Police.   Big Larry  

Lol. Good one!

July 30, 2019
9:40 pm
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Anyone know what year Winchester introduces the California full buckhorn 26A black powder? 

And I assume the 26B smokeless was introduced close to the introduction of the 30 WCF caliber 1895?

AG

August 1, 2019
8:53 pm
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AG said
Anyone know what year Winchester introduces the California full buckhorn 26A black powder? 

And I assume the 26B smokeless was introduced close to the introduction of the 30 WCF caliber 1895?

AG  

Just throwing the above out there one more time!

AG

August 2, 2019
3:52 pm
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AG said

Just throwing the above out there one more time!

AG  

I doubt anyone here knows or we would have found out by now.  Big LarryFrownFrown

August 2, 2019
5:21 pm
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I can not find a reference to this sight in the catalogs going up to 1900.  Stroebel's book shows on page 294 a picture of  "Sights adapted to Winchester Rifles" and again on page 295 that shows the California Buckhorn but there is no direct reference as to the date.  But several references are stated on these pages about 1920's era catalogs.

On page 287 there is a section about which elevator should be used with what sight and gun.  There is a reference to using a Model 26 (does not state A or B) with Models 1892 and 1894 carbines.  Also it states Use a 1A elevator with No. 22 and 26B on black powder rifles and Model 1892 rifles ?

King and Marbles did make a Full buckhorn too.

Still does not answer the question. 

I will look some more.

August 2, 2019
5:28 pm
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Maine
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Chuck said
I can not find a reference to this sight in the catalogs going up to 1900.  Stroebel's book shows on page 294 a picture of  "Sights adapted to Winchester Rifles" and again on page 295 that shows the California Buckhorn but there is no direct reference as to the date.  But several references are stated on these pages about 1920's era catalogs.

King and Marbles did make a Full buckhorn too.

Still does not answer the question. 

I will look some more.  

Thanks Chuck. 

AG

August 2, 2019
5:37 pm
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AG said

Thanks Chuck. 

AG  

AG.  Read my updated post.

August 2, 2019
7:12 pm
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Chuck said
I can not find a reference to this sight in the catalogs going up to 1900.  Stroebel's book shows on page 294 a picture of  "Sights adapted to Winchester Rifles" and again on page 295 that shows the California Buckhorn but there is no direct reference as to the date.  

Appears to be a post-WWI introduction--not in 1918 cat., but shows up in the 1925.  I have none in between those two dates.

A name invented by their ad dept., as the same (poor) design had always been called a full-buckhorn by other makers.

August 2, 2019
9:30 pm
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AG,

I am sorry I did not see your post earlier.  I have the original Winchester blueprints for the 26A and 26B and yes, they are different sights.

The drawings indicate the 26A has a fixed blade and was specified for use on the black powder 1873, 1886, 1892 and 1894.  It also was supplied as "mail order" according to the drawing.  The blueprint for the 26B indicates it has an elevation adjustable rear blade that has a small screw and sliding plate on the buckhorn.  The drawing says the 26B was only supplied as "mail order" and was not provided as standard on any rifle.

I also have the record of product changes for those sights as well.  The 26A was changed 2/18/08 per Winchester Change of Product Notice (C/P) 40, changed again 6/8/08 per Winchester Change of Product Notice (C/P) 87 and changed again 2/20/19 per Winchester Change of Product Notice (C/P) 7501.  The last entry is for the use of black power rifles 73, 86 & 94 not in the line, (only supplied on the 1892 after that).  I have the actual change records for those dates as well which detail what was changed on the sight but it will take me awhile to dig them out if you need them.  According to the the dates the 26A was in use prior to 1908 and after 1930 but I don't know when it was actually introduced or discontinued.

In addition to the above changes that were mirrored on the 26B drawing, an additional change was made to the 26B on 4/1/14 per Winchester Change of Product Notice (C/P) 3121.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

August 2, 2019
11:24 pm
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Maine
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Thank you JWA. Really appreciate your reply & time. 

AG

August 3, 2019
9:50 pm
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Jeff, what is your best guess of when these first came out?

August 4, 2019
10:38 am
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Yes would be nice to know a date when they were initially offered as a “mail order”. 

AG

August 4, 2019
2:58 pm
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Gentlemen,

I am a Winchester .22 Rimfire guy and not very knowledgeable about lever action guns but the following is what is reflected in the documentation I have:

 

Chuck –

I don’t know exactly when the 26A (old #38) and 26B (old #40) were introduced but based on Winchester’s semi-sequential numbering system they were introduced sometime after 1873 which was the introduction of the “Sporting Rear Sight” which they were based upon.  Here are the dates they specifically appear in the Winchester catalogs and other documentation:

1913 - The blue print I have for the 26B was printed October 8, 1913 (it is date-stamped on the back side).

1924 or 1925 – First use of the term “California” based on my incomplete set of catalogs.  The name “California” is not used in the 1923 catalog and is listed in the 1925 catalog but I do not have a 1924 catalog.

1930 - It is likely that 11/13/30 is the date when the “Mail Order” was added to the blueprint for the 26A.  See Product Notice #1287.

1935 – Last catalog that both 26A and 26B are listed together

1936 – Only the 26B is listed from this date forward in the Winchester mail order replacement parts catalogs.

1950 – The last year the 26B is listed in the Winchester mail order replacement parts catalogs

 

AG –

I dug out the Winchester Change of Product Notices and this is what they are for the 26A and 26B:

26A Buckhorn Sight (Supplied with Black Powder 73, 86, 92 & 94) -

Change of Product (C/P) #40 dated 2/18/08 provides for discontinuing the checking on the right and left sides of the head (sights prior to that date were checked).

Change of Product (C/P) #87 dated 6/8/08 provides for polishing the right and left sides of the head, rendered necessary by the omission of the checking.

Change of Product (C/P) #7501 dated 2/20/19 provides for chamfering edges of the base to facilitate driving the sight into the barrel.

Product Notice (P/N) #1287 dated 11/13/30 specifies the sight for mail order replacement for the black powder cartridge rifles 73, 86 & 94 “not in the line”. 

It is likely that the 11/13/30 date is when the “Mail Order” was added to the blueprint after the standard rifles indicated.

26B Buckhorn Sight (Mail Order Only) -

Change of Product (C/P) #40 dated 2/18/08 provides for discontinuing the checking on the right and left sides of the head (sights prior to that dated were checked).  Same as 26A

Change of Product (C/P) #87 dated 6/8/08 provides for polishing the right and left sides of the head, rendered necessary by the omission of the checking. Same as 26A

Change of Product (C/P) #7501 dated 2/20/19 provides for chamfering edges of the base to facilitate driving the sight into the barrel. Same as 26A

Change of Product (C/P) #3121 dated 4/1/14 provides for changing the title of the Binding Screw to #24A.

 

That is about the extent of the information I have on hand for the 26A and 26B.  I also checked the Madis sight book and he appears to only reference the information on my drawings and did not appear to have any further information either.

Although not the complete answer you were looking for I hope it helps.

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

August 4, 2019
3:23 pm
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Appreciate all the info JWA. That’s more than I could’ve ever found out on my own.

Although it’s not black powder I’m thinking of installing the 26A I acquired on my first variation 1894 in 38-55(DOM 1895). Just wanted it to be period correct. 

AG

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