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1873man said
I question the address on the ebay site unless he moved or someone is copying his book.Bob
Bob, It isn’t Tyler himself who put up this listing, but someone who got hold of several copies for resale…or made them himself with a copy machine. What was Tyler originally charging, if you remember? I’m impressed with the drawings, though that doesn’t necessarily mean Tyler’s attributions are correct.
Clarence
I think I paid around $15. He didn’t make the drawings. They are copies from Winchester drawings
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Tim Tyler’s reference is based on the 1917 spreadsheet that have had copies floating around for the last 40 years. Pauline Muerrle recently published a reprint of that same document and it is available here – https://paulinemuerrle.com/winchester-standard-sight-equipment/
Also, I have the blueprints for all of the sights pre-1935 in the original sight book that was maintained in the Winchester Assembly Room.
The blueprints are followed by a page (or for some sights multiple pages) which describe all of the change details and dates of implementation for that blueprint which was routinely updated. The information in the assembly room book not only contains the full sized blueprints for the sights but extends the sight changes past the 1917 spreadsheet and up to early 1935.
For this discussion I have taken a photo of the 22B blueprint and the change record page if that helps. There is also a penned note on the drawing that states the 22B was discontinued and refer to the 22A.
I believe Madis based some of the information in his sight book on this original factory document. This factory Winchester sight book contains over 400 blueprints.
I am NOT a knowledgeable centerfire sight person and only use this resource for my rimfire interest but I hope this helps.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
FWIW, It appears as if the side checking was discontinued on the 22A on 2/18/08 per change of product notice 40.
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA,
Thanks for letting us see the document that I’m sure lead to the publishing of current books. Thank you for sharing. T/R
I’m amazed by the time & effort expended in making & recording all these nit-picking modifications that few customers would ever notice. Different sights for black vs smokeless powder & for calibers with very similar trajectories, which assumes a degree of precision in aiming attainable only if the target was standing in the open beside a yardage marker. That isn’t possible when most shots are going to be based on range estimations subject to the variability of the light & the shooter’s skill.
JWA said
FWIW, It appears as if the side checking was discontinued on the 22A on 2/18/08 per change of product notice 40.
I can see what the document says but wasn’t the 22 A replaced with the 22 B in 1887? If so, why would this document say 22 A and 1908 not 22 B?
Clarence,
It doesn’t surprise me. Look at a Trapdoor Springfield, different sights for a carbine verses a rifle, as time went on the sight improved. If the gun is accurate and the sight is not calibrated how do you hit the target. Winchester put a brushed soft blue in areas of the sight that might reflect light and ruin the sighting image. Winchester made a quality gun right down to the sight! If you bought a new Winchester and the proper Winchester ammo you were ready to go as you walked out of the store.
I load most of my antique Winchester’s with factory weight bullets at original velocity, each click of the elevator equals 50 yards, that’s not a coincidence. I use the rear sight elevator to range set the tang sight, then drop the rear sight down to shoot. Having the proper rear sight and elevator for caliber, bullet weight, and velocity was imperative then. Quality made Winchester the desired manufacturer then and the collectible gun now. T/R
TR said
Rick,
Nick Strebel’s book just lists the numbers not the letters. T/R
Stroebel does list the sights with the letters too. It is just hard to find sometimes. The only ones that I can’t find are the earliest sight for the 73’s and the 22 A and B.
TR said
I load most of my antique Winchester’s with factory weight bullets at original velocity, each click of the elevator equals 50 yards, that’s not a coincidence. I use the rear sight elevator to range set the tang sight, then drop the rear sight down to shoot. Having the proper rear sight and elevator for caliber, bullet weight, and velocity was imperative then. Quality made Winchester the desired manufacturer then and the collectible gun now. T/R
Well & good, not disputing any of that, but my point is that when you’re guessing the range, knowing that each notch equals 50 yrds will not necessarily put you on target, unless you’re an uncommonly good guesser, which the average shooter is not.
Range guesstimating is hard even for above average shooters. Then when you get it on the closest notch you then may have to adjust your sight picture to get it exactly where you need it.
Chuck said
I can see what the document says but wasn’t the 22 A replaced with the 22 B in 1887? If so, why would this document say 22 A and 1908 not 22 B?
Hi Chuck,
To directly answer your question, in this particular book some of the Change of Product Notices encompassed several sights in the same series. In many cases the clerk recording the change wrote the specific change particulars (like the omission of the side checking) on the first sight instance and then simply put “see that sight notation” on the subsequent sights affected by the Change Notice. Kind of the lazy way to do it and it requires you to flip back and forth between blueprints but it is what it is. Hope that makes sense?
In 1899 for .30 WCF it was specified as a 22B. It appears as if the 22B was discontinued and changed back to the the 22A in February of 1914. By May of 1918 the blue print spreadsheet shows it as a 22H on the 94 in .30 WCF. So it appears to me as if it has always been a “22” series sight but the style (letter) of the sight has changed over the years as well as the small changes made to the sights themselves.
Again, I am not a centerfire guru but it appears as if an 1899 Model 1894 chambered for .30 WCF should have had the 22B with the side checking.
Let me know if there is a different 22 series sight blueprint or notes you would like to see and I will shoot some more pictures. There are 21 sheets on the 22 series of sights.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
clarence said
Well & good, not disputing any of that, but my point is that when you’re guessing the range, knowing that each notch equals 50 yrds will not necessarily put you on target, unless you’re an uncommonly good guesser, which the average shooter is not.
Clarence, I am not a good guesser, but I know how long Bob’s range is. I don’t know how they did it in the day but I think I might have gone hungry guessing range. T/R
JWA said
Chuck said
I can see what the document says but wasn’t the 22 A replaced with the 22 B in 1887? If so, why would this document say 22 A and 1908 not 22 B?
Hi Chuck,
In 1899 for .30 WCF it was specified as a 22B. It appears as if the 22B was discontinued and changed back to the the 22A in February of 1914. By May of 1918 the blue print spreadsheet shows it as a 22H on the 94 in .30 WCF. So it appears to me as if it has always been a “22” series sight but the style (letter) of the sight has changed over the years as well as the small changes made to the sights themselves.
Again, I am not a centerfire guru but it appears as if an 1899 1894 chambered for .30 WCF should have had the 22B with the side checking.
Let me know if there is a different 22 series sight blueprint or notes you would like to see and I will shoot some more pictures. There are 21 sheets on the 22 series of sights.
Best Regards,
Thank you Jeff. That’s exactly the info I was looking for & appreciate your input here.
TR said
Chuck, Stand corrected, thanks. T/R
No need and that was not my intent. Sorry.
Stroebel’s books are confusing at best. Generally the info is there but you have to go back and forth to find it. The latter part of the Winchester section gives you a breakdown by Model but doesn’t give the suffixes. Earlier in the book the 22 for instance it shows all the suffixes except the A and B. We all know the early #22 found on the earliest 73’s is not even mentioned. Maybe it was just the 22, no suffix?
I’d like to check out Pauline’s info.
RickC said
Thank you Jeff. That’s exactly the info I was looking for & appreciate your input here.
Hi Rick,
No worries, I updated my post to Chuck so it contains a slightly better explanation if you go back and revisit it.
Best Regards,
Jeff
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Chuck said
Maybe it was just the 22, no suffix?
No need for a suffix or prefix when there’s only one model. Only when additional variations are introduced at a later time does a means of differentiating them arise. Lyman’s #5 front sight was all but itself until the 5A & B variants were designed a few yrs later. My favorite Winchester sight is the 82A; it must have been preceded by an 82, but since I’ve never seen any reference to it, I assume it didn’t survive beyond the prototype stage.
TR said
Clarence, I am not a good guesser, but I know how long Bob’s range is. I don’t know how they did it in the day but I think I might have gone hungry guessing range. T/R
One of the places I sometimes take my dog is a golf course with a 300 yd driving range, & yd markers at 50 yd intervals. Have always thought, what a great place to hunt–no range guessing required! (Actually, the place is overrun with deer, but I kind of suspect deer hunting is discouraged.)
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