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i have received a mostly compete model 97 made between 1917 and 1918. according to the serial number it is missing a few parts and given the dates i would like to know if it was issued during WW1.(651313) i am starting to restore it and would like to get original parts. the barrel length is right and marked cyl. there is no stock or for end just the action barrel receiver and internals to receiver. there are some roll marks on the back of the receiver where stock meets. the serial number seems to fall between that of the guns shipped to the US. but has no markings as far as that goes any info would be great. if this is even a letter able gun please let me know. i could have parted it out and made a bunch of money and it will cost what its worth to restore it but i could not let a 100 year old Winchester be torn apart for a few dollars guns like this should be restored not cut into pieces and sold for scrap.
The serial number is just a bit too early for a the known WW I Riot or Trench Guns, and it identifies it as an early 1917 vintage Model 1897. Is it a Solid frame, or a Take Down?
The factory ledger records end at serial number 377,999, so No, you can not get a CFM factory letter for it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thank you for the information .And for taking the time to reply any info from a true historian is greatly appreciated even if it was not what I wanted to see. The information. I found online said the world war shotguns serials where from 614000 to 750000 but who knows who made that up. I am glad to atleast know the truth now and thanks again .
Carlton wright said
Thank you for the information .And for taking the time to reply any info from a true historian is greatly appreciated even if it was not what I wanted to see. The information. I found online said the world war shotguns serials where from 614000 to 750000 but who knows who made that up. I am glad to atleast know the truth now and thanks again .
You are quite welcome.
The WW I production Model 1897 Riot & Trench Gun serial number range begins very near 668000, and it ends very near 705000.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, there are several examples of WW1 1897 trench guns with serials lower than 668,000. I have data on a few that are in the 655,000 serial number range. At least a couple of them have the hand stamped “US” and Ordnance bomb marks on the receiver. Bruce Canfield has also found in Ordnance Records some riot guns in this serial number range, some with machine stamped “US” and Ordnance bomb marks. One is pictured in his book on Military shotguns.
Any information on the markings ? A as specific inspector ? Or did the all have those markings on back of reciver behind the stock
Tom D said
Bert, there are several examples of WW1 1897 trench guns with serials lower than 668,000. I have data on a few that are in the 655,000 serial number range. At least a couple of them have the hand stamped “US” and Ordnance bomb marks on the receiver. Bruce Canfield has also found in Ordnance Records some riot guns in this serial number range, some with machine stamped “US” and Ordnance bomb marks. One is pictured in his book on Military shotguns.
Tom,
I am completely aware that there are small number of them that fall outside of the given range. However, the generally accepted range is as I mentioned.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Carlton wright said
Any information on the markings ? A as specific inspector ? Or did the all have those markings on back of reciver behind the stock
There is no specific information available that I am aware of that discusses the various inspector markings that were used on any of the many different Winchester models.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
651613 I made a mistake I took a better look and lightly cleaned some on it. But I highly doubt 300 makes that much difference. I think I will be ordering bruce canfields book on US military shotguns .And check out the table he lists .And try to pick up a real trench gun after u restore this rusty old riot
Thanks guys so I actually got in touch with bruce canfield(really nice guy by the way) super down to earth and very helpful. I can’t say enough good things about someone like that. Doesn’t talk down to anyone for lack of knowledge and takes the time to help random people with nothing to gain.i almost ordered a set of books and asked him to autograph them based on that. But I figured that might be too much to ask for. any way he said that it was 1918 and that all the guns in this time where slated for military use. No it’s not a trench gun it only has 1 groove under the barrel looks factory but I am sure it’s where the magizen band was. About 3 and 3/4 inches from end of barrel. Still really cool couldn’t be happier with this. (Unless it was a trench gun) haha. But for 150 in a lot of 9 guns out of a old building in Georgia I will take it. I feel like it found me to be fixed and brought back to it’s glory days. Instead of some greedy jerk who would have tore it apart for profit or even worse bought fake stamps and made it look like a real trench gun for profit. Now I must resist the temptation to slam fire it. So I don’t break it or ware out any parts. Still might have to try it once or twice. Thanks everyone .
Mr. Canfield is a true gentleman’s gentleman. I have known him for many years and I doubt anyone knows more about US militaria than he does.
If you are going to start a collection or just get one, be very careful. In todays market most of these US shotguns have been faked or modified from the original. Read his books and ask questions. There are a few knowledgeable folks on this forum also glad to help you out. Big Larry
Carlton wright said
Thanks guys so I actually got in touch with bruce canfield(really nice guy by the way) super down to earth and very helpful. I can’t say enough good things about someone like that. Doesn’t talk down to anyone for lack of knowledge and takes the time to help random people with nothing to gain.i almost ordered a set of books and asked him to autograph them based on that. But I figured that might be too much to ask for. any way he said that it was 1918 and that all the guns in this time where slated for military use. No it’s not a trench gun it only has 1 groove under the barrel looks factory but I am sure it’s where the magizen band was. About 3 and 3/4 inches from end of barrel. Still really cool couldn’t be happier with this. (Unless it was a trench gun) haha. But for 150 in a lot of 9 guns out of a old building in Georgia I will take it. I feel like it found me to be fixed and brought back to it’s glory days. Instead of some greedy jerk who would have tore it apart for profit or even worse bought fake stamps and made it look like a real trench gun for profit. Now I must resist the temptation to slam fire it. So I don’t break it or ware out any parts. Still might have to try it once or twice. Thanks everyone .
Mr. Canfield is in error… serial number 651613 was manufactured in the first half of the year 1917 per the original Winchester serialization records (available at the CFM). If you (or he) has any doubts about that fact, I urge you both to contact the CFM records office. Unfortunately, there is still a lot of misinformation floating around out there in regards to the Model 1897 dates of manufacture.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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