Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Original Winchester shotguns
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 588
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
March 5, 2024 - 2:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

While recently considering buying a collector grade factory original and only having a “basic” knowledge of Winchester shotguns(models, grades, etc), it appears there are far more of these reconfigured, or non original than rifles I’ve encountered. Whether it be different wood, jewelled bolts, matte finishes, butt pads/plates, factory installed ribs/Simmons installed ribs etc to enhance appearance or value, you really need more than basic knowledge if you want an original. Some are just straight up faked original or not period correct, and I think some sellers just don’t know or realize. This forum has been a great source with replies & info from Bert and others and also the Riffle book but being careful is an understatement. Not sure who agrees or this is common knowledge among shotgun collectors but, this has been my experience.

 Rick C 

   

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 300
Member Since:
January 7, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
March 6, 2024 - 12:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I agree.  This ^^ (uncertainty of originality and certainty of fakes) is the one thing that’s kept me from landing a model 12 in 28 gauge. Seeing what I’ve seen on the interwebz, I’ve kept myself from purchasing one and probably won’t unless I have it in my hands for inspection.  I did land a very nice circa 1942 Model 42 Skeet with an intact 2 1/2″ chamber though.  

Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....

WACA #10293

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5015
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
March 6, 2024 - 2:00 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

The “problem” with Winchester shotguns is that they are very good sporting guns, many competitive shooters used them. Comp shooters will modify/upgrade and refinish their favorite shotguns at the drop of a hat. This includes club shooters, not restricted to the more serious competitors. Apparently not many survived in original form. There’s few things more satisfying than the way a full choke Winchester Trap M12 breaks a bird. 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
New Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1
Member Since:
February 19, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
March 19, 2024 - 2:01 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said
The “problem” with Winchester shotguns is that they are very good sporting guns, many competitive shooters used them. Comp shooters will modify/upgrade and refinish their favorite shotguns at the drop of a hat. This includes club shooters, not restricted to the more serious competitors. Apparently not many survived in original form. There’s few things more satisfying than the way a full choke Winchester Trap M12 breaks a bird. 

 

Mike

  

I agree, the only thing as satisfying as breaking a clay with the M12 is breaking doubles with my Model 87 although would never use it in competition. 

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5015
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
March 20, 2024 - 1:34 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

texcwa said

TXGunNut said

The “problem” with Winchester shotguns is that they are very good sporting guns, many competitive shooters used them. Comp shooters will modify/upgrade and refinish their favorite shotguns at the drop of a hat. This includes club shooters, not restricted to the more serious competitors. Apparently not many survived in original form. There’s few things more satisfying than the way a full choke Winchester Trap M12 breaks a bird. 

 

Mike

  

I agree, the only thing as satisfying as breaking a clay with the M12 is breaking doubles with my Model 87 although would never use it in competition. 

  

Here’s a thought; an 1887 12 gauge Riot gun shooting those little shorty shells over on the field where birds fly both ways. I think they call it Skeet. I wonder if an 1887 will feed those little shells. I suck at doubles Trap even though I enjoyed it while I could afford it. Or maybe I could put someone’s trench gun through it’s paces on the Skeet field, my regular #8 loads will work in that! I’ll probably forego the bayonet, pretty sure my club has rules against that. I used to shoot Skeet with a sawed-off 1897 just for giggles now and then. Those fighting guns aren’t pretty but they sure are fun to shoot.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 209
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
March 20, 2024 - 4:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

To repeat what all prudent collectors know, the Winchester Model 12 is not rare. It was produced in large numbers. However, production ceased a long time ago and finding one in high original condition, particularly a deluxe grade produced in more limited numbers, Is increasingly more difficult and hazardous each year.  

Collector mortality has become the only significant source of supply. If you doubt this, look at the photos of the last WACA show and estimate the median age of our membership. 

The question is, will the demand for collectible Model 12 Wincesters rise or fall?  I suggest it is slowly falling except for the truly rare or choice examples. By that, I mean the price of ordinary field grade examples in 12 gauge in very good condition has not kept pace with inflation.

While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.

I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.  

But I do enjoy the occasional round of Skeet with my English-stocked, Win-choked, 28 gauge Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade. I’m reasonably certain it’s all original and I already know it was made in Japan.

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; Life Member, National Rifle Association; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 588
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
March 21, 2024 - 4:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Zebulon said
While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.

I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.  

  

No truer words spoken Zebulon, all while making me chuckle. Good one!

 Rick C 

   

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5015
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
March 22, 2024 - 3:11 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

RickC said

Zebulon said

While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.

I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.  

  

No truer words spoken Zebulon, all while making me chuckle. Good one!

  

I have been fortunate to add two very nice fairly late Model 12 Field guns to my modest collection in recent years. Both sport 26” modified barrels but are otherwise unremarkable other than the outstanding quality found in all Models 12. They share safe space with a well-used but excellent older M12 Black Diamond Trap and a Y-Model 12 Trap that occasionally get to turn pretty orange targets to powder. I’ll always be haunted by a Model 12 Skeet in 20 ga, I passed on it to buy the Citori XS 20ga next to it because something about the 25” barrel bothered me. The Citori has helped me convert many cases of #8 ammo into empty hulls but quite honestly I probably should have bought both…but I listened to that little voice that knows some things are not as they seem.

Caveat emptor.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 209
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
March 22, 2024 - 4:20 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

RickC said

Zebulon said

While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.

I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.  

  

No truer words spoken Zebulon, all while making me chuckle. Good one!

  

I have been fortunate to add two very nice fairly late Model 12 Field guns to my modest collection in recent years. Both sport 26” modified barrels but are otherwise unremarkable other than the outstanding quality found in all Models 12. They share safe space with a well-used but excellent older M12 Black Diamond Trap and a Y-Model 12 Trap that occasionally get to turn pretty orange targets to powder. I’ll always be haunted by a Model 12 Skeet in 20 ga, I passed on it to buy the Citori XS 20ga next to it because something about the 25” barrel bothered me. The Citori has helped me convert many cases of #8 ammo into empty hulls but quite honestly I probably should have bought both…but I listened to that little voice that knows some things are not as they seem.

Caveat emptor.

 

Mike

  

Any M12 collection that contains a Black Diamond grade Trap and two handsome [youve put up at least one photo] field grades with 26″Mod barrels — falls well north of “modest.”

Small gauge Model Twelves in nice condition are always tempting but we wonders what might have been on the end of that 25″ barrel before it was cut off?  A Cutts? What was the marked choke?  A clever Smith can jug choke a cylinder bore.  

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; Life Member, National Rifle Association; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5015
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
March 22, 2024 - 1:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bill-

The M12 20ga Skeet was very possibly correct, barrel was marked WS-1 but I was unable to measure the choke to my satisfaction. That little voice in my head told me to pass and I did. Everyone who shoots that little Citori tries to buy it, a few have tried to carry it off while I wasn’t looking. That little voice was probably right but I’ll never know. 
I believe there are more than a few very clean late Model 12 Field grade guns floating around.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: Bert H., steve004, win86guns, Randycrockett, 86Win
Guest(s) 147
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6354
TXGunNut: 5015
Chuck: 4596
1873man: 4317
steve004: 4244
Big Larry: 2338
twobit: 2293
mrcvs: 1723
TR: 1722
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12736
Posts: 110930

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1758
Members: 8842
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation