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While recently considering buying a collector grade factory original and only having a “basic” knowledge of Winchester shotguns(models, grades, etc), it appears there are far more of these reconfigured, or non original than rifles I’ve encountered. Whether it be different wood, jewelled bolts, matte finishes, butt pads/plates, factory installed ribs/Simmons installed ribs etc to enhance appearance or value, you really need more than basic knowledge if you want an original. Some are just straight up faked original or not period correct, and I think some sellers just don’t know or realize. This forum has been a great source with replies & info from Bert and others and also the Riffle book but being careful is an understatement. Not sure who agrees or this is common knowledge among shotgun collectors but, this has been my experience.
Rick C
I agree. This ^^ (uncertainty of originality and certainty of fakes) is the one thing that’s kept me from landing a model 12 in 28 gauge. Seeing what I’ve seen on the interwebz, I’ve kept myself from purchasing one and probably won’t unless I have it in my hands for inspection. I did land a very nice circa 1942 Model 42 Skeet with an intact 2 1/2″ chamber though.
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
WACA #10293
November 7, 2015
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The “problem” with Winchester shotguns is that they are very good sporting guns, many competitive shooters used them. Comp shooters will modify/upgrade and refinish their favorite shotguns at the drop of a hat. This includes club shooters, not restricted to the more serious competitors. Apparently not many survived in original form. There’s few things more satisfying than the way a full choke Winchester Trap M12 breaks a bird.
Mike
TXGunNut said
The “problem” with Winchester shotguns is that they are very good sporting guns, many competitive shooters used them. Comp shooters will modify/upgrade and refinish their favorite shotguns at the drop of a hat. This includes club shooters, not restricted to the more serious competitors. Apparently not many survived in original form. There’s few things more satisfying than the way a full choke Winchester Trap M12 breaks a bird.
Mike
I agree, the only thing as satisfying as breaking a clay with the M12 is breaking doubles with my Model 87 although would never use it in competition.
November 7, 2015
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texcwa said
TXGunNut said
The “problem” with Winchester shotguns is that they are very good sporting guns, many competitive shooters used them. Comp shooters will modify/upgrade and refinish their favorite shotguns at the drop of a hat. This includes club shooters, not restricted to the more serious competitors. Apparently not many survived in original form. There’s few things more satisfying than the way a full choke Winchester Trap M12 breaks a bird.
Mike
I agree, the only thing as satisfying as breaking a clay with the M12 is breaking doubles with my Model 87 although would never use it in competition.
Here’s a thought; an 1887 12 gauge Riot gun shooting those little shorty shells over on the field where birds fly both ways. I think they call it Skeet. I wonder if an 1887 will feed those little shells. I suck at doubles Trap even though I enjoyed it while I could afford it. Or maybe I could put someone’s trench gun through it’s paces on the Skeet field, my regular #8 loads will work in that! I’ll probably forego the bayonet, pretty sure my club has rules against that. I used to shoot Skeet with a sawed-off 1897 just for giggles now and then. Those fighting guns aren’t pretty but they sure are fun to shoot.
Mike
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To repeat what all prudent collectors know, the Winchester Model 12 is not rare. It was produced in large numbers. However, production ceased a long time ago and finding one in high original condition, particularly a deluxe grade produced in more limited numbers, Is increasingly more difficult and hazardous each year.
Collector mortality has become the only significant source of supply. If you doubt this, look at the photos of the last WACA show and estimate the median age of our membership.
The question is, will the demand for collectible Model 12 Wincesters rise or fall? I suggest it is slowly falling except for the truly rare or choice examples. By that, I mean the price of ordinary field grade examples in 12 gauge in very good condition has not kept pace with inflation.
While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.
I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.
But I do enjoy the occasional round of Skeet with my English-stocked, Win-choked, 28 gauge Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade. I’m reasonably certain it’s all original and I already know it was made in Japan.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.
No truer words spoken Zebulon, all while making me chuckle. Good one!
Rick C
November 7, 2015
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RickC said
Zebulon said
While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.
I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.
No truer words spoken Zebulon, all while making me chuckle. Good one!
I have been fortunate to add two very nice fairly late Model 12 Field guns to my modest collection in recent years. Both sport 26” modified barrels but are otherwise unremarkable other than the outstanding quality found in all Models 12. They share safe space with a well-used but excellent older M12 Black Diamond Trap and a Y-Model 12 Trap that occasionally get to turn pretty orange targets to powder. I’ll always be haunted by a Model 12 Skeet in 20 ga, I passed on it to buy the Citori XS 20ga next to it because something about the 25” barrel bothered me. The Citori has helped me convert many cases of #8 ammo into empty hulls but quite honestly I probably should have bought both…but I listened to that little voice that knows some things are not as they seem.
Caveat emptor.
Mike
TXGunNut said
RickC said
Zebulon said
While fakers have been at work in our hobby forever, having a trove of pretty nice field grade guns means having to apply a lot less rouge to the fairly presentable pig, to make it a priceless jewel of the first water.
I admire the M12 and have owned several but I wouldn’t buy a Model 12 28 gauge Skeet grade if twenty bishops of the true faith swore it to be genuine.
No truer words spoken Zebulon, all while making me chuckle. Good one!
I have been fortunate to add two very nice fairly late Model 12 Field guns to my modest collection in recent years. Both sport 26” modified barrels but are otherwise unremarkable other than the outstanding quality found in all Models 12. They share safe space with a well-used but excellent older M12 Black Diamond Trap and a Y-Model 12 Trap that occasionally get to turn pretty orange targets to powder. I’ll always be haunted by a Model 12 Skeet in 20 ga, I passed on it to buy the Citori XS 20ga next to it because something about the 25” barrel bothered me. The Citori has helped me convert many cases of #8 ammo into empty hulls but quite honestly I probably should have bought both…but I listened to that little voice that knows some things are not as they seem.
Caveat emptor.
Mike
Any M12 collection that contains a Black Diamond grade Trap and two handsome [youve put up at least one photo] field grades with 26″Mod barrels — falls well north of “modest.”
Small gauge Model Twelves in nice condition are always tempting but we wonders what might have been on the end of that 25″ barrel before it was cut off? A Cutts? What was the marked choke? A clever Smith can jug choke a cylinder bore.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Bill-
The M12 20ga Skeet was very possibly correct, barrel was marked WS-1 but I was unable to measure the choke to my satisfaction. That little voice in my head told me to pass and I did. Everyone who shoots that little Citori tries to buy it, a few have tried to carry it off while I wasn’t looking. That little voice was probably right but I’ll never know.
I believe there are more than a few very clean late Model 12 Field grade guns floating around.
Mike
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