My first model 21!|Winchester Shotguns|Forum|Winchester Collector

Good morning, Bill and welcome to the Forum. That is a beautiful Model 21 and I don’t believe the price was out of line for what you received. Galazan/CSC would charge you $15K to build a new 21 from scratch but I don’t believe it would include that grade of Walnut or the level and quantity of checkering without an upgrade. At first glance, that is the Grand American pattern or very close.

Except for the fact the receiver was originally forged earlier, in essence you have a new, high-grade 21 at several.thpusand dollars less than what CSC would require. 

You didn’t mention the chokes but, because you’re a Clays shooter, is there a possibility Briley tubes are in the gun? 

When you have it in hand, lets see some more photos.  For reasons you’ll understand if you’ve read my long-running post styled the good and bad news about my 1947 Skeet Gun,  I’d like to see a photo of your forearm’s inletting.

Congratulations. The pain of the cost will fade but the pleasure of owning and using that shotgun will endure.

Bill

Hey, James. Good morning.  I’ve had the gun back for too long and still not been able to get out, even though I’m hip high to an elephant in shotgun shells after delivery of two — not one – cases of Olin’s 7/8 ounce stuff.  I thought Cabela was going to stiff me on my “low stock” order so placed a backup order with Midway. I shouldn’t complain but I keep tripping over the boxes trying to get must-do chores done. 

Tell me about your 20 gauge! 

Beautiful gun, Bill! I agree this gun will be fun to take to SXS shoots or whenever you feel like shooting it. That’s a lot of money but from what I’ve seen you certainly can’t replace it for that. 

Mike

Model 21’s are like Jay’s Potato Chip’s–you just can’t stop at one!  Still looking for that elusive .410 skeet gun to complete my gauge set.  May have to did deep and have Connecticut Shotgun make me one.

I should have acted back when sixteen gauge was considered a curse instead of a pricey “small bore.”  At the time,  other necessities intervened.

It didn’t take me long to figure out a 12 bore was what I could afford, unless I wanted to give up more other specimens than I cared to. A lot more. 

At this point, I’m trying to absorb what the British preach about upland twelve guns- that an ounce of shot is plenty and it patterns well in a twelve. 

I own and shoot enough twenty gauge guns not to buy into much of the “overbore” religion – that there is some, rather small, amount of shot ideal for a twenty – usually 7/8 ounce — and anything more results in poor patterns and long shot strings. The typical criticism is directed at the 3″ 20 magnum. The late Bob Brister did not find that so with modern protective shot cups, and I have patterned and hunted my 101 28 gauge with enough 1 ounce loads to have an opinion: at 35 yards from a modified choke it is certain death on pheasants if I do my part.

In any event, the next grand experiment TXGunNut and I will undertake is what my 21 Skeet Gun will do with 7/8 ounce of #8 at the pattern board, out of its Skeet 1 and 2 chokes. We will report as events warrant. (And let us see if its forearm will stay attached and intact.)

Mike,  the other Bill’s gun has what I believe is called the “trap” forearm, significantly longer than the field and Skeet forearms. I like it and a lot of customers paid extra to get it. It looks best with longer barrels.

Steve,  the 21 is a different country. Ned Schwing noted in his book, Winchester’s Finest, that the 21 is not subjected to the same collector rules as other models. Most collectors buy the Model 21 to shoot and hunt with.  There were relatively few of them made – roughly 30,000. When you say that’s a lot of money, it really isn’t when their only competition is a Purdey or Holland. By that, I mean the people who want one are not tempted by Spanish, Italian, or German doubles – some of which are very nice.

Thei construction of the 21 is unique and it makes them very stout. And very expensive to build. 

CSC/GALAZAN bought the rights and the tooling from Olin and will build you a new one branded Winchester. Starting at $15K for a plain Jane. CSC also restores old 21s and does a thriving business. 

What our friend Bill has bought is a 21 upgraded to Grand American except for the engraving and overdone inlay work I’ve never cared for. The beauty of the Model is in its.lines, durability and understated Americana. 

A big reason for NOT buying a used 21 from an unknowledgable or unscrupulous seller is hidden defects can be ruinously expensive to repair. CSC warrants their rebuilt guns and Bill also bought from a reputable dealer.

In the end, the free market determines price. 

Steven Gabrielli said
I see. Thanks for the insight.
  

Steve, I should add that it’s possible to buy a good used, substantially unmodified Model 21 — one of those built in New Haven before they became a Custom Shop special order, and well before the Custom Shop was sold to Tony Galazan — for very significantly less than fifteen thousand dollars. If that were not so,  I wouldn’t own the one I bought last year. 

To talk in very rough numbers,  as long as you are willing to buy a twelve gauge, field grade gun with some visible signs of use and — as many of them have acquired, for good reason — a non-original recoil pad, four to five thousand USD will get it done. And that is about a grand higher than two years ago, because of the persistent inflation. 

The overwhelming supermajority of Olin Model 21 production was 12 gauge. I rather suspect the few specimens turned out by CSC are small bores. Bottom line: If you want other than a 12 bore, it takes a painful amount of money. 

If I had been able to have my druthers, mine would have been a straight-gripped sixteen gauge because that was once the “Queen of the Uplands.” But,  In order to afford the gun, I’ve had to do what the Brits have done always: buy a 12, leave the blockbuster loads to the goose hunters and shoot low recoil, low velocity 7/8 to 1 ounce shells. [Some fool consigned a like new Browning Gold Hunter with Briley chokes and a Zero Halliiburton case for peanuts last year and that will get whatever high velocity shells I’ve got in my locker.]

The risk you take is in buying a half-Century old gun that needs work. Mark Douglas has a video showing what takes to repair loose barrels and it is frightening. 

I was lucky, although I got a bad scare. I bought a 1947 Skeet Gun on Gunbroker from an East Texas collector with a good reputation, because he was accepting offers according to auction rules and wiiling to deal. [The Cody letter called for a checkered butt and a Pachmayr Old English pad was there instead. Fine. For me, a seven pound 12 with a checkered butt may be original but it’s stupid.] 

I  drove over to pick it up and did not notice the forearm had an incipient crack because it was an early gun without the “forearm recoil abutment” – a Rube Goldberg device installed in later guns. Had I studied my volume of Schwing more carefully, I might have worried about this but I was ignorant. First shot at the Skeet range left the forearm in my hand, a bloody trigger finger and a no-longer-incipient crack. 

Very fortunately, my gunsmith has long experience with double shotguns and diagnosed the underlying problem – a poorly inletted forearm iron that had resulted in an old, small, repaired split; but the smith didn’t address the underlying problem. Ron kept the gun a couple of weeks and glass bedded the forearm iron, then ran a couple of proof loads to make sure the problem was solved. $350 USD. 

The Model 21 Skeet Gun is a curious animal. According to early Gun Digests, it was priced exactly the same as the Field grade gun. The pre-1947 versions had 26″ barrels bored Skeet 1 and 2 and 20 LPI checkering. Non-automatic safety. Choice of straight or pistol grip stock, checkered butt. No mention of upgraded wood. Supposedly, starting in 1947 the checkering was cut 18LPI and the barrels were lengthened to 28″ 

Go figure. My gun’s D.O.M. is 1947 but the checkering is 22 LPI, the barrels are 26″, and the wood is anything but plain.  Cody says “Skeet finish” and the furniture in fact reflects a high level of polish. 

I am not sure what to think. The gun is [almost] everything I wanted in a 21, it’s beautiful, the price was reasonable even with Ron’s bill, and I intend to shoot it a lot. But I realize now that I was lucky not to get burned and didn’t know what I was doing.  As with several other pieces, this will be a collection of one.