Winchester Collector - Forum: Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/ Simple:Press Version 6.11.14 jlb on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179441 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179441 I understand what you are saying with respect to the checkered butt on Skeet Winchester Model 21’s.  However my 20 gauge does not seem to have a lot of recoil using 7/8 oz commercial shells at 1150-1200 fps.  I really like the gun which has 28” skeet in/Skeet out barrels and a set of 28” M/F barrels.  I am looking forward to hunting doves this fall and I wonder which barrels I will prefer.  I told my model 21 friend that I was thinking of removing the checkered butt and I thought I was going to have to take him to the Heart Hospital.  Tomorrow we are going to shoot five stand with Model 21’s designed for other uses.  Bob will shoot his 16 gauge m/f gun and I will shoot a vent rib 12 gauge trap gun choked full and less full.

 

I will say that the longer stock on the trap gun feels better in many situations than the shorter stoked 20 gauge.   There is however something special about the 20 gauge gun.  

 

jlb

]]> Sat, 16 May 2026 01:37:39 +0000 Zebulon on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179439 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179439 I can only assume that someone in authority at Winchester who did not shoot Skeet, decided the standard butt configuration for the Model 21 Skeet Gun would be the checkered Walnut butt its ownself, without a buttplate or pad. 

Before 1947, the Skeet Gun also came standard with 26" barrels, lengthened that year to 28".  

My own 12 gauge Skeet Gun was given a final inspection in March 1947 but has the earlier short barrels and letters at 7 pounds 6 ounces with 14" pull to a checkered butt. 

By the time it came to me in 2025, the checkered butt was gone, LOP still 14" to a Pachmayr Old English recoil pad. 

Having shot one round of Skeet with this gun using an ounce of #8 shot at 1350 foot seconds, I can tell you I have no desire to do that again. The idea of firing 200 such shells in an afternoon with this gun strikes me as nuts and doing the same thing with only a checkered wood butt in place as terminally stupid. 

[This Skeet Gun is quite comfortable at Skeet using 7/8 ounce of shot at about 1000 foot seconds. Olin's AA Low Recoil  is a fine solution.]

My predecessor obviously thought so too and I owe him a debt of thanks for not installing a Whiteline ventilated pad. 

The Old English pad is pretty soft but it isn't Sorbothane. If I replaced it and Limbsaver still made a red version of their solid pad, I might use that. Otherwise, it would be Pachmayr's Sorbothane Old English. pix999855458.jpgpix591313464.jpgpix802593935.jpg

]]> Sat, 16 May 2026 00:59:02 +0000 TXGunNut on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179353 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179353 I was surprised to learn a few years ago that I am now 6'1", down from 6'3". I was 6'1" when I got my drivers' license at 16 and DPS never let me change it so I guess that worked out. No mystery about where it went. I prefer a shotgun with a bit shorter LOP than most folks would consider optimal for my arm length so all my standard length Citoris and Winchesters fit me just fine!

I had to replace the rubber recoil pad on my Y-Model 12 Trap to withstand Trap loads and the reproduction looks enough like the original to please me but to the astute collector is easy enough to spot. Easy repair if you're careful and not in a hurry.

 

Mike

]]> Wed, 13 May 2026 03:20:01 +0000 tim tomlinson on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179319 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179319 Chuck,  NO DOUBT!  Me too......It all has to go somewhere.  Comb height is affected if the face gets filled out a bit more,too.  Tim

]]> Tue, 12 May 2026 03:46:43 +0000 Chuck on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179295 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179295

tim tomlinson said
Better believe it!  At one point on active duty I just was shy of 6' 3 and 1/2".  BARELY make 6' 1" now.  Plus I am told I will get even shorter.  Part is longitudinal bones and joints compress, part is posture.  So much to find out yet!!  Makes a difference on length of pull to some extent.  Tim
  

Getting shorter is probably how I got wider.

]]> Mon, 11 May 2026 22:12:01 +0000 tim tomlinson on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179283 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179283 Better believe it!  At one point on active duty I just was shy of 6' 3 and 1/2".  BARELY make 6' 1" now.  Plus I am told I will get even shorter.  Part is longitudinal bones and joints compress, part is posture.  So much to find out yet!!  Makes a difference on length of pull to some extent.  Tim

]]> Mon, 11 May 2026 17:07:19 +0000 Ricklin on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179282 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179282 Installing a new pad is not an ordeal. As long as the stock has not been cut it's not an issue to return the gun to factory original. Of course always disclose any reproduction parts. Me, I'm usually a happy guy just adding the pad, I like a longer LOP, and I am a fairly big guy. Hey no one told me that getting older meant also getting shorter, I was darn near 6'2" I'm just 6' these days. I guess we shrink with age?Embarassed

]]> Mon, 11 May 2026 16:25:11 +0000 jlb on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179256 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179256 My friend seems to think that a leather pad would be great but the wear and tear of a trap gun would limit its life.  Fortunately the pitch was not changed at least compared to my gun which is a mirror image of his soon to be gun.  

]]> Sun, 10 May 2026 21:01:30 +0000 Ricklin on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179251 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179251 Ugh, how 1968.....I'm no fan either. I'd want to know if the stock was cut for that bit of ugly. A Pachmayer leather covered old English would be nice on the gun. A less than experienced guy can easily change the pitch when cutting. Were it mine I would choose a good pad, I like about 9.5 lbs. and a good pad, or my current choice an old SX-1 The SX-1 could use a new pad it's like a rock. Fortunately it does not NEED the pad, or I don't. I can't take the repeated recoil. Not since that pesky surgeon swiped most of my lobster tails. I had neck surgery about 4 years ago, I can finally ride my bicycle again, got rid of my motorcycle.

]]> Sun, 10 May 2026 19:54:21 +0000 jlb on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179250 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179250 Your comments about trapshooters is unfortunately fairly accurate.  A good friend is in the process of purchasing a 30" vent rib 21 Winchester Trap gun.  This is a very nice gun with the exception of a white line recoil pad which infuriates my friend.  "How could someone do that to a classic gun" is his last statement.  I am sure that a new pad will be the order of the day when the purchase is completed.

 

jlb

]]> Sun, 10 May 2026 19:43:05 +0000 Ricklin on My first model 21! https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-first-model-21/#p179249 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-first-model-21/#p179249 The model 21 can be compared to British best guns. At least in the way their owners use and treat them. CSMC can fix them, build a new one, or make an old one new. Very comparable to the ways of the traditional british gun, sent back to the maker for freshening and reproofed. When properly done esp. by the original maker the guns value is enhanced.

]]> Sun, 10 May 2026 19:42:30 +0000 Ricklin on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179246 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p179246 Trap shooters will modify a nice shotgun at the drop of a proverbial hat, in hopes of shooting that same hat!

My 1918 LC Smith Specialty had an add on Walnut rib. The only one i have ever seen. It has since been removed. At least it was done nicely, but I would prefer no holes in it's very unique first year floating rib. Amazing fit, over 100 years later and it still does not rattle.

I'll count my blessings, that add on rib made for a great buy. I removed the ugly, it's my back fence gun for games. Best trigger of any gun I've owned or shot, simplicity there is no safety. 

A safety on a single barrel trap shotgun is as useless as teats on a boar hog.Laugh

]]> Sun, 10 May 2026 19:21:17 +0000 jlb on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p178491 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/page-2/#p178491 I have uploaded an image of a Simmons vent rib on a ~ 1935 28 gauge model 12 which shows the Simmons Gun Specialties marking in script.  The image is at best poor as it only shows Simmons and Gun clearly.  The marking on this rib is very difficult to see under normal light and I only recently observed its presence.  This is the only script label on a rib from Simmons that I have observed.

 

jlb

IMG_0951-1.jpeg

]]> Tue, 21 Apr 2026 17:07:20 +0000 Bert H. on Differences between . . . https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/differences-between/#p178410 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/differences-between/#p178410

kevindpm61 said
Nice looking examples Bert.
  

I only own one of them (the Brush Gun).  The other two pictures are examples I accumulated during my research for the recently published article discussing the Model 1897.

Bert

]]> Sun, 19 Apr 2026 16:31:56 +0000 kevindpm61 on Differences between . . . https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/differences-between/#p178407 Winchester Shotguns https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/differences-between/#p178407 Nice looking examples Bert.

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