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Model 50 pigeon
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March 17, 2025 - 1:46 am
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Nice gun, great photos! I’d be very surprised if the engraving is not factory or done as a side job by one of the factory engravers. I’ll dig out my engraving book tomorrow but it sure looks good to my untrained eye.

 

 

Mike

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March 17, 2025 - 12:10 pm
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Edward Vanderbeck said
That tag has a price of 787.00 dollars on it. It’s original to the gun

  

According to a CPI inflation calculator, a 1957 price of $787 USD would translate to a whopping $8,937 USD in 2025.  In case anyone should think the piece was a screaming bargain. I knew there was a reason I couldn’t have one. 

- Bill 

 

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March 17, 2025 - 3:49 pm
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Pauline should be able to tell you if its factory or not and if so likely who engraved it. 

To me it certainly looks like a factory pattern. 

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March 17, 2025 - 5:01 pm
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Agree.  My understanding of the Pigeon Grade shotguns of the Fifties  has been refreshed somewhat by reviewing the 1952 Gun Digest shotgun catalog pages that describe the several grades of the Model 21 then available. There was no “Pigeon” grade by name but the “Model 21 Deluxe” was probably the same thing. 

Whereas the “Model 21 Field Gun” with standard matted rib listed for $329.20, the Deluxe  with matted rib was $419.30.  The difference in price allowed the customer to specify stock dimensions, chokes, and barrel lengths. The customer could also order fancy checkering, engraving, and specify a cheekpiece and Monte Carlo comb — but for extra cost, P.O.R.  

At least in the early Fifties, I believe the only way you could get special order features for your Model 21 was to order a Deluxe and then write up what else you wanted, to get a quote.  While there was a “standard” Deluxe at a list price, for that price you could still have the barrels choked anyway you liked — even “left barrel to throw a 50% pattern at 40 yards with #7 1/2 high antimony shot.”  Because of that and being able to order, say, 25″ barrels and a 15″ forearm, I think it would have been impractical to fill the order except through the Custom Shop.  There’s a good chance the Vanderbeck Model 50 PG once appeared in the Custom Shop records. 

If that was the case in 1957, I’m still surprised to see a sales tag, unless a dealer special ordered the gun for stock rather than for a particular customer.  Perhaps Abercrombie & Fitch or the Hollywood Gun Shop would do something like that?

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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March 17, 2025 - 7:30 pm
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Zebulon said

Edward Vanderbeck said

That tag has a price of 787.00 dollars on it. It’s original to the gun

I noticed that. Would you mind telling us what you know about the provenance of the gun? 

I wasn’t sure whether that was the tag placed on it when you bought it in used condition or that it was original to the gun when new. One of the things I’m curious about is why, if the gun was not a stock item available in a retail store, it would have a price tag.  I’ve never ordered anything from Winchester’s Custom Shop nor do I have any idea what all would be in their shipment to the customer. I’ve assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that an invoice or packing list or copy of an original order would shipped in the box but retail tags would be absent. 

Some of our members with more experience could perhaps answer what the procedure was. Of course, if you know the gun’s history, you could say how it was. 

A very interesting piece.

The shotguns of this era would have likely been shipped in a cardboard box. Inside of them would be shipped a BLANK price tag. For the dealer or retailer to write in the price. Typically this would be done written by hand using pencil or pen. But also popular in this era and as far back as the 1890s was the use of the hand “stamp price marker”. The kind that rolls on a dial and can be adjusted to any price desired within some many numeral places. Also dealers could order / be supplied with extra labels/tags.

So if an individual special ordered through a retail outfit. Said retail outfit assuredly was entitled to their own mark-up on the final retail price. Winchester didn’t care if or what their dealers marked up from the suggested retail price. Just so long as they did sell them below the suggested price. Which is where they had issues with Sears & Roebuck making prices way too low. 

Now as far as being able to (Pre-1968 Gun Act) mail order the shotgun directly from the custom shop. I’m not exactly sure how they would of sent them from the factory to an individual.

So few examples exist today of the original packaging with most them out there being well crafted fakes. How often do you keep the box and instructions on the products you buy today?

Sincerely,

Maverick

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March 17, 2025 - 8:43 pm
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Only firearms so I can someday say “LNIB”. 

- Bill 

 

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March 17, 2025 - 11:18 pm
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Is there a marking or something to differentiate the two?

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April 2, 2025 - 11:36 pm
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If one runs an inflation calculator on that 787.00 price? Way too much money for a fancy Winchester shotgun in the late 1950’s. For hecks sake a new Chevy sedan was about 2,500…Smile

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April 4, 2025 - 12:10 am
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Rick Lindquist said
If one runs an inflation calculator on that 787.00 price? Way too much money for a fancy Winchester shotgun in the late 1950’s. For hecks sake a new Chevy sedan was about 2,500…Smile

  

I don’t have much of a grip on what custom shop Winchesters cost in the late Fifties. Maybe it was the engraving or the elaborate checkering pattern that ran it up so high but Winchester was trying to discourage custom orders then. You really had to want it and wait for it.

However, I don’t think $800 in 1959 would have  been out of line for a Model 21 Deluxe (stocking to your specs but no cheekpiece or MC comb) plus  that AB checkering and some modest scroll.  My understanding of Custom Shop pricing was that it significantly exceeded what many top shelf custom makers were charging for the same work. I’d like to hear whether I’m wrong from somebody with evidence to the contrary. 

I do know my Dad paid $1500 in 1957 for a clean, used 1955 Chevrolet 2-door DelRay sedan, stick shift, six cylinder, no radio or A/C.  I think an optioned out new 1955 Belaire hardtop was closer to $3500 in 1955. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 14, 2025 - 12:36 am
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The gun looks great, perhaps the original retailer had a pie in the sky price on it. I’m with Zebulon on getting together with Pauline virtually, she can tell you more about the gun and may have some records as well. Just shy of 800 bucks was a lot, not casting any aspersions. I’d love to own one like it. I do love my SX1 it’s younger brother. I’m an M12 fan as well, I have too many trap shotguns I need to thin the herd.

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April 17, 2025 - 8:51 pm
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The guy who bought this was a live pigeon shooter as well as a money shooter in trap. Don’t know how much money was involved in 1957 but today 100k is not really that unheard of in a pigeon shoot. A buddy of mine shoots pigeons for a living last fall he told me he lost out by 1 bird for a 100k he has won multiple big money pots and a world championship in helice in Spain his kid finished 5 in the world in the Paris Olympics in olympic trap and won multiple national and world championships in sporting so it runs deep in that family

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April 17, 2025 - 8:55 pm
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My dad bought a broadway trap browning in 1957 said it was 350 dollars i have read the first 32 kreighoffs started at 600 dollars and went up in about that same time frame. 

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April 17, 2025 - 10:14 pm
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Ed Vanderbeck said
My dad bought a broadway trap browning in 1957 said it was 350 dollars i have read the first 32 kreighoffs started at 600 dollars and went up in about that same time frame. 

  

Browning Superposed shotguns were a relative bargain in 1957, but only compared to a Winchester 21 or a Kreighoff.  That same Christmas my J. C. Higgins [Marlin with a Birch stock] bolt action single-shot set my Dad back twelve bucks for a brand new one. 

The best way to get a grip on the subject is to look at the median weekly wage for, say, skilled labor in the same year. I believe it was (very) roughly $91 USD, less taxes.

If true, that Superposed doesn’t look too cheap at over a month’s gross wages — $350 roughly.

In 2025, at the current median weekly wage of $1194 USD for skilled labor, if the same Superposed cost a month’s gross wages, its price would be $4600 USD.  Which is probably why Browning doesn’t catalog them anymore except on special order — for a lot more than $4600.

Of course, to estimate the effect on the maker’s profit, we’d need to assume a constant manufacturing and marketing cost-to-retail price ratio. 

Doing the same with the Winchester Model 63, much less a Model 52 Sporting Rifle, helps us realize how impossible their continued production was for any Division manager who valued a comfortable retirement. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 17, 2025 - 10:19 pm
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My dad said he joined the carpenters union in 1957 scale was 1.45 a hour said that was big money for the time

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April 17, 2025 - 10:59 pm
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Ed Vanderbeck said
My dad said he joined the carpenters union in 1957 scale was 1.45 a hour said that was big money for the time

  

Ed, He was right.  The Texas Gulf Coast refineries paid more for skilled labor then, because carpenters, instrument men, boiler makers, welders, machinists and mechanics, electricians, were all in high postwar demand and they couldn’t get enough of them. Also, the OCAW was an aggressive union and the big oil companies preferred to pay and keep running three sets of hands. 

It was a bit later but in the Summer of 1962 I made “Common Labor” union scale of $2.75 an hour, working for an outside contractor. 

It’s why so many people moved to the Houston metro area, after Korea. 

But, even though my Dad was a machinist,  the idea of any Winchester branded .22 never entered his head. And he was a generous man to his children. He just thought those were above his pay grade — and certainly mine!

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 18, 2025 - 3:02 am
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Bill I had a 1922 model 12 2 pin rib gun in my hands yesterday 30 in full barrel numbers matching it has the us and bomb catouches on the reciever could this be something like a trainer that was used to teach tailgunners how to learn lead.when I get down there i will take pictures I am going to try to buy it as well as I love the 2 pin guns

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April 18, 2025 - 3:18 am
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This guy that has it has over 150 model 12’s his dad collected them for over 50 yrs and he is nearly to 50 yrs years himself collecting its the most extensive collection i have ever seen, several 28 gauges and a bunch of rare stuff like a heavy duck  pigeon grade 12-5 engraved gun. Has a couple of the knurled barrels that look like a rib but no rib. I have known him since 1982 bought a lot of my model 12’s from him he is a awesome gunsmith and  is a wealth of winchester knowledge not many left like him for sure. Feel blessed to call him my friend.

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April 18, 2025 - 3:56 am
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As much as I like the Model 12 and the Model 42, my knowledge of the breed is extremely limited.  I’d encourage you to post lots of pix and that should cause all of the Model 12 gurus to come out of their sanctuaries and inundate you with their opinions. Photos of ANY Model.12 are this forum’s equivalent of dumping a bucket of bloody chum into shark infested waters. 

[Me no Alamo. Me no Goliad. Both my current Model 12 and 42 are Br*****gs. ]  

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 18, 2025 - 4:02 am
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But the fact that you’ve known the seller for a long time and trust his knowledge is a very valuable asset, in this marketplace.

Like the street people say. “Know your dealer!”

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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