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November 7, 2015
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I don’t recall it as being poorly finished but the stock cartouche was there. I guess it won’t be too hard to track down the seller, club show and all.
Man I tell you I love this forum. Seems like any gun or issue I’m needing info on its here. Thank all of y’all. Ok I was in a gun shop I frequent and this M-12 trench gun is still there. It appears unfired and not a scratch on it. The bayonet, with leather scabbard, is on it and has an ordnance bomb on the blade next to the hilt. US with ordnance bomb is on right side of receiver. The gun has parkerized finish. Serial number is 1016845, so the gun was made in 46′. I thought they did not parkerize these guns till 1,030,000. Shouldn’t it be a blue finish? It has a leather sling with steel hardware. There is not a ordnance bomb on barrel, or at least not where it can be seen, because of the handguard, which by the way is 4 row with 19 holes per row. Where should the bomb on the barrel be? Also cannot find cross cannons mark or inspector initials on left or right side of the stock, which according to my Winchester books should be on the left side. They want 2200 for the gun but it is a 98% gun which should be a 5000 to even 8000 dollar gun. There is just too many little things not right which is scarring me off. I want it to be right but according to my research it is not. What do y’all think? Thanks for you input.
Bert H. said
It would frankly take too long to describe what to look for, and it varies depending on exactly when the gun was made. Like everything else that Winchester manufactured, there were numerous production changes that took place at various times within the production run. It is very important to know what those changes were, and specifically when in the production run they were made.Sorry to be so vague, but it is becoming way too easy for the wrong people to read and learn from the details we post on this forum, and I frankly refuse to help them learn the errors of their deceitful ways.
Bert
Anymore, it takes an expert in the field to tell a good one from a bad one. I collected these shotguns for several years and you are quite correct. Most are put together or downright fakes. The M97 I have pictured is a good one. Just bought it for an investment because it was so cheap, I could not turn it down. I no longer collect these. It is about as nice as they get. Big Larry
The shotgun’s serial number is too low for it to have an original parkerized finish. It would have left the factory with a blue finish. If it has a steel buttplate, that is a replacement. Original buttplates on these shotguns is the black hard rubber type with Winchester logo. It should have a GHD inspector’s mark with the Ordnance Dept. crossed cannons mark on the buttstock. If it’s not here, that means the buttstock has been sanded or replaced. The barrel should have a small Ordnance bomb mark on top just forward of the Winchester proof mark.
By the way, 1016845 is a 1943 gun, not 1946.
Big Larry said
An original WW2 parked M12 serial number would be in the 1,030,000 range if my memory serves me correctly, which it doesn’t these days. These guns are poorly finished with many tooling marks on them. They have a GHD cartouche on the stock. Not rare, but uncommon. They bring a very hefty price tag. I think I sold mine for $5,000 many years back. It came out of the Bob Norse collection. Big Larry
Larry, I just recently received a winchester model 12 trench from my Uncle who had passed away due to covid. The serial number is #1008xxx and it’s blued. The numbers between the barrel and the magazine tube “42”. It is a reworked trench gun from the (Rock Island Arsenal) based on the stocks (RIA) cartouche. The Cyl has two horizontal lines through the cyl marking. Oh, the butt plate is a bishop and I’m guessing since parts were unavailable a new stock was replaced with what ever they had. The rest of the markings are in place to include thee “W” on the heat shield. Can you tell me what I have $$ wise
T.C., shortly after WWII the Govt’ converted many Model 12 riot and long barrel shotguns to trench gun configuration. Because Model 12 riot and long barrels taper toward the muzzle, whereas the trench barrels do not, they used a sleeve on the muzzle end of the barrel to make the bayonet adaptor fit properly. Many of these conversions were done by RIA. A lot of them when to the TVA and are usually so marked. Many were fitted with Bishop stocks and butt plates.
Can you see a sleeve on your shotgun under the bayonet adaptor? If so, it was likely a military conversion.
Tom D said
T.C., shortly afterT.C said
Big Larry said
An original WW2 parked M12 serial number would be in the 1,030,000 range if my memory serves me correctly, which it doesn’t these days. These guns are poorly finished with many tooling marks on them. They have a GHD cartouche on the stock. Not rare, but uncommon. They bring a very hefty price tag. I think I sold mine for $5,000 many years back. It came out of the Bob Norse collection. Big Larry
Larry, I just recently received a winchester model 12 trench from my Uncle who had passed away due to covid. The serial number is #1008xxx and it’s blued. The numbers between the barrel and the magazine tube “42”. It is a reworked trench gun from the (Rock Island Arsenal) based on the stocks (RIA) cartouche. The Cyl has two horizontal lines through the cyl marking. Oh, the butt plate is a bishop and I’m guessing since parts were unavailable a new stock was replaced with what ever they had. The rest of the markings are in place to include thee “W” on the heat shield. Can you tell me what I have $$ wise
WWII the Govt’ converted many Model 12 riot and long barrel shotguns to trench gun configuration. Because Model 12 riot and long barrels taper toward the muzzle, whereas the trench barrels do not, they used a sleeve on the muzzle end of the barrel to make the bayonet adaptor fit properly. Many of these conversions were done by RIA. A lot of them when to the TVA and are usually so marked. Many were fitted with Bishop stocks and butt plates.
Can you see a sleeve on your shotgun under the bayonet adaptor? If so, it was likely a military conversion.
Yes, I can see the sleeve and no where on the shotgun is it marked TVA
Tom D said
T.C., shortly after WWII the Govt’ converted many Model 12 riot and long barrel shotguns to trench gun configuration. Because Model 12 riot and long barrels taper toward the muzzle, whereas the trench barrels do not, they used a sleeve on the muzzle end of the barrel to make the bayonet adaptor fit properly. Many of these conversions were done by RIA. A lot of them when to the TVA and are usually so marked. Many were fitted with Bishop stocks and butt plates.Can you see a sleeve on your shotgun under the bayonet adaptor? If so, it was likely a military conversion.
I can see the sleeve at the end of the barrel where the shield ends…no TVA markings though…(Tennessee Valley Authority) you mean
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