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I have a 16ga model 1912. It is a takedown. MOD choke. Ser#91148. Circa 1915. Heres the question… how many were built with 22" barrels?
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22" barrels were not specifically listed in the catalog. However, special order requests could be honored if deemed reasonable by Winchester. Look for the choke constriction near the muzzle. Most likely somebody cut off the end of the barrel at some time. This was not an uncommon practice if the owner thought the choke was too tight or damage was done to the muzzle. Also check the chamber length, I believe this should be 2 9/16" for this early year.
the barrel stamp is mod. choke is intact, barrel is 22" factory installed. My question is how many in 1915 were built with 22" barrels? I apologize for any confusion. Yes the chamber is 2 9/16" the entire gun is unmolested. There were alot of early 1912s that were reamed to fit the 2 3/4" shells dominating the market back in the 20s~30s or so not exact on when the industry standard went to 2 3/4".
Ken,
There are no surviving records for the Model 1912/12 other than the Polishing Room Serialization records, and those records only tell us when a particular serial number was stamped on the receiver. Unless you (or someone else) can survey every single serial number that was manufactured in 1915, nobody will ever know the answer to your question.
Speaking of serial numbers, 91148 was not manufactured in the year 1915. If you check it through the CFM, you will find that it is a 1914 vintage gun. Serial number 110370 was that last one serialized on December 31st, 1914.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
The info I could find on the net stated 1915, I only assumed it correct. Thanks for the correct date. Have you ever seen one with a 22in barrel? Im interested in its value and rarity.
Ken,
A lot of things can happen to a gun that left the factory 98 years ago including having the barrels shortened.
To determine if those barrels are in fact original 22 inch with Modified choke as stamped on the left side of the breech end of the barrel, measure the diameter at the muzzle. Better yet, find some one with a choke gauge and see how far back in the barrel the constriction starts.
Bore diameter of a 16 gauge shotgun is 0.662 inches. If the muzzle measures within a few thousandths of that, I would say it was cut. If indeed it is correct with modified choke, the muzzle would measure around 0.650 +/- a few thousandths.
Please let us know what you measure.
Jolly
Until about mid-1915, all the then offered Model 1912’s- 12-16 and 20– did NOT have the milled in groove on top of the receiver, which was then roll matted- they were smooth, and then roll matted to cut glare–check that first to give you a feel for the dates- 26" was the standard factory length for the 16 gauge from 1914 to about 1923, when they were also then offered in 28"– The Winchester engineers knew what length it took for the powders of that era to burn cleanly, and 22" OAL would have been 2.75" inches too short-excessive muzzle blast blows patterns, especially with the paper shells and rolled or pie crimping of that era– Not so much an issue with the M12 Guard and Riot and trench guns in 20" barrel length, but very few 16’s were made in that configuration, most of them after 1930 when WRA went to the std. 2 & 3/4" shell chambering for both the 16 and the 20 gauges. Why do you want to spend $ and time on a "Bastard" gauge shotgun, even the best repeater ever made? You can’t get 2 & 9/16" shells any more, shoot a 12 gauge and leave this "sawed-off" orphan in the gun case.
"Here's lookin' at you, kid!"
Edwin:
I am well aware that the 16ga is dead. My passion is collecting them little gems. I know i only lose 1/8th oz of shot (and about a half lb of dead weight) to the superior 12ga. Don’t worry… my little "bastard" shotgun hasn’t cost me a dime. I don’t need to find 2 9/16th hulls when i make them out of 2 3/4in. hulls. That "bastard" as you put it was purchased NIB by my great grandfather. Respectfully, i don’t question your hobbies, please don’t downplay mine
fyi: the cambering of 38-40WCF is obselete but still get bought and sold daily
Jolly, i took it to a gunsmith for measurements. will let you know outcome
Ken S. said
Edwin:I am well aware that the 16ga is dead. My passion is collecting them little gems. I know i only lose 1/8th oz of shot (and about a half lb of dead weight) to the superior 12ga. Don’t worry… my little "bastard" shotgun hasn’t cost me a dime. I don’t need to find 2 9/16th hulls when i make them out of 2 3/4in. hulls. That "bastard" as you put it was purchased NIB by my great grandfather. Respectfully, i don’t question your hobbies, please don’t downplay mine
fyi: the cambering of 38-40WCF is obselete but still get bought and sold daily
Jolly, i took it to a gunsmith for measurements. will let you know outcome
No disrespect intended. I was merely quoting Captain Paul A. Curtis from his 1934 book "Guns and Gunning"- try to find factory new 16 gauge shells today–only source is RST and B&P and they are pricey, but if a 16 ‘floats your boat", far be it from me to rain on your parade!!EP
"Here's lookin' at you, kid!"
None taken.
in terms of 16ga i have a few rare ones
win mod 12 22" barrel
mossberg model 160 misstamped model 190
Left handed remington 1100
Left handed remington 11-87
2 ithaca 37
Iver johnson champion
to name a few rare birds
in terms of 12ga I only have a rem 870 magnum and a trap grade model 12 win
The other 16ga are run of the mill remingtons nothing special
16 gauge is dead, since when?
There is a reason why the 16 ga was nicknamed “The Sweet 16”. It will do anything that a 12 will do, just with less recoil and noise.
A 16 is a beautiful thing to carry and hsoot. after hunting with a 16, I will never go back to a 12.
My favorite shotgun is a beautifully engraved pre war Austrian double in 16 ga. I’ve taken a lot of quail and dove with 2 ½ inch shells. And you can shoot all day with a steel or horn buttplate and not have a sore shoulder the next day.
Here are a couple of places that carry 2 ½, 16 ga shells. I like the Westley Richards, 7/8 oz, not too pricey when you buy them by the case.
http://polywad.com/doublewide.html
http://www.rstshells.com/
http://www.westleyrichards.co.uk/Shop
Ken S.
Looks like this topic just got a little life.
Ken: Back on Tuesday March 19th, you mentioned you took your 22" 16 gauge model 12 to a gunsmith to measure the diameter of the bore at the muzzle.
Please don’t keep us in suspense. What was the measurement?
Respectfully looking forward to a reply.
Jolly
Ken S. said
Edwin:
I am well aware that the 16ga is dead. My passion is collecting them little gems. I know i only lose 1/8th oz of shot (and about a half lb of dead weight) to the superior 12ga. Don’t worry… my little “bastard” shotgun hasn’t cost me a dime. I don’t need to find 2 9/16th hulls when i make them out of 2 3/4in. hulls. That “bastard” as you put it was purchased NIB by my great grandfather. Respectfully, i don’t question your hobbies, please don’t downplay mine
fyi: the cambering of 38-40WCF is obselete but still get bought and sold daily
Jolly, i took it to a gunsmith for measurements. will let you know outcome
Hello Ken S. I am thinking about selling my Winchester Model 12 in 16ga with factory 26″ IC barrel made probably 1939. I am the second owner from about 1958(?). It is original except that the butt pad (red) maybe an add? Any help on value would be appreciated, it sure is a sweet Ruffed Grouse gun.
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