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Is this 1897 “trench gun” real
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Dough boy
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July 17, 2022 - 1:41 am
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I emailed [email protected] photos if he would like to upload them. SN:953109, allegedly it’s from World War II. It should be made in 1943 as it’s a late production model.rnI pray it’s real, I did all my research and everything. If it’s actually real, my plans are to try to sell it to the Cody firearms museum or another museum. I don’t deserve it and primarily bought it so someone else couldn’t. If this thing is actually real, you don’t always get an opportunity to buy one. However people get scammed everyday buying these. You want to guess what I payed considering the condition. The finish is relatively good, it could be better but It also could be significantly worse. It still has a good amount of bluing and the woods pretty nice 

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July 17, 2022 - 3:06 am
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I did receive the pictures you sent to me, and your Model 97 is a correct (authentic) late production (February 1943) WW II Trench Gun.  As it turns out, I already had it documented in my research survey.

The Cody Firearms Museum does not purchase firearms… currently they have several thousand firearms that are not on display due to the shear number that have been donated to them.  The last time I asked, the current display represents less than 20% of what they have buried away in the vaults beneath the museum.  Generally speaking, unless a specific firearm has some very significant historical importance or can be tied to a historical person, museums do not purchase the firearms they display.  Instead, the guns are either on loan, or they have been outright donated to the museums.  Keep in mind that bona fide museums are non-profit entities.

Bert

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July 17, 2022 - 3:25 am
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Bert H. said
I did receive the pictures you sent to me, and your Model 97 is a correct (authentic) late production (February 1943) WW II Trench Gun.  As it turns out, I already had it documented in my research survey.

The Cody Firearms Museum does not purchase firearms… currently they have several thousand firearms that are not on display due to the shear number that have been donated to them.  The last time I asked, the current display represents less than 20% of what they have buried away in the vaults beneath the museum.  Generally speaking, unless a specific firearm has some very significant historical importance or can be tied to a historical person, museums do not purchase the firearms they display.  Instead, the guns are either on loan, or they have been outright donated to the museums.  Keep in mind that bona fide museums are non-profit entities.

Bert

  

OK thank you for letting me know, so I should just keep it? I will take good care of it but I just think it could be put to a better use. When you say you had it documented, how many real ones do you see floating around? Especially in this condition, I know it’s not the best. But the finish on this is still intact and more than good enough. Almost everyone I have ever seen was fake or refinished/refurbished that’s why I jumped on it.

I think the only reason sold for what it sold for was that the seller labeled it properly as a riot gun. Link to listing for anyone curious (https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/winchester-shotguns—model-97/the-winchester-model-1897-riot-gun-with-bayonet—40-trench-gun–41-.cfm?gun_id=101573222)

this heartless looser used pictures of my gun when scamming. It’s so rare to find a gun that’s real do you have to recycle pictures?(https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/winchester-shotguns—model-97/winchester-model-1897-pump-trench-gun-made-1914-very-rare.cfm?gun_id=101732984)

I’m more than happy to keep it. It’s just so rare to see one of these that’s legitimate I thought it would be the right thing to do to make sure it’s well kept while also being seen by people.

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July 17, 2022 - 3:36 am
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Over the many years that I have been researching & surveying them, I have documented (435) authentic Trench Guns (that total includes both WW I and WW II).

You could always sell it to a collector who would appreciate being the caretaker of that gun.

Bert

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July 17, 2022 - 3:47 am
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Bert H. said
Over the many years that I have been researching & surveying them, I have documented (435) authentic Trench Guns (that total includes both WW I and WW II).

You could always sell it to a collector who would appreciate being the caretaker of that gun.

Bert

  

Yeah that’s what I’ll probably end up doing, it’ll probably sit in my possession for a while until I find a worthy buyer. Out of the 435 were there more ww1 guns or ww2? What’s the average condition, and do you include refurbished and refinished ones? Most I’ve seen that were real looked like this lol (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/939755321) or had been refinished with non original parts. 

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July 17, 2022 - 3:58 am
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I have found more WW II Trench Guns than WW I, and the ratio is 4:3.  I have included all guns found regardless of the graded condition (including refurbished and refinished guns).  That stated, I have encountered at least several dozen Trench Guns that are in higher graded condition than the gun you now have.  Due to the significant number of them that endured arsenal rebuilds, it would be silly to only include those that are still 100% original.

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July 17, 2022 - 4:08 am
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Bert H. said
I have found more WW II Trench Guns than WW I, and the ratio is 4:3.  I have included all guns found regardless of the graded condition (including refurbished and refinished guns).  That stated, I have encountered at least several dozen Trench Guns that are in higher graded condition than the gun you now have.  Due to the significant number of them that endured arsenal rebuilds, it would be silly to only include those that are still 100% original.

Bert

  

Yeah it only makes sense that there’s several better ones than mine. Would you consider mine above or below average or just average. Also how much do you see them sell for. I probably overpaid I’m not gonna lie, however you can’t really turn down an opportunity to get one as the ones that are better aren’t ever going to get resold unless someone dies or goes bankrupt .

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July 17, 2022 - 4:14 am
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I would put your gun above average, and would expect to pay something slightly north of $5,500 for it.  That stated, I have seen bidding wars erupt in auctions and the hammer price exceed $9K for a gun like yours.

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July 17, 2022 - 4:28 am
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Bert H. said
I would put your gun above average, and would expect to pay something slightly north of $5,500 for it.  That stated, I have seen bidding wars erupt in auctions and the hammer price exceed $9K for a gun like yours.

  

Lol I’m not gonna tell you what I paid for it. I definitely didn’t get ripped off, I knew I was paying more than most people would. When you’re talking about they’re only being 435 and mine being above average you can kind of name your price and someone will pay it. It may take a long time but someone will pay it, as long as it’s not that crazy. It’s affectively priceless, most people viewed it as overpriced and I viewed it as my only opportunity. I also think the guy that sold it to me on purposely made it over priced so whoever bought it lost money if they wanted to resell it.  

The guy I bought it from was super stingy and wouldn’t move. He was so attached to the gun though, he told me that he rubbed down the wood with oil yearly and how I should always wear gloves. Although he also definitely overstated how good of condition it was in. Like it’s definitely in good condition, not perfect. 

Definitely part of the reason I got it was most thought it was overpriced. I would also argue The gun market has changed and all logic is out the window. People want the trench gun and they will pay whatever price. I’m also never going to resell it so it’s not like I’m losing money. If/when I sell it, it will be to someone who will appreciate it most not the person with the most money. I have a literally been looking for a trench gun since I heard about it in high school history class. This kind of feels like an achievement, although once I got it it’s kind of scary. It’s a lot of responsibility owning something like this specially when one bad decision can make it 434 trench guns

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July 17, 2022 - 4:37 am
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Bert H. said
I would put your gun above average, and would expect to pay something slightly north of $5,500 for it.  That stated, I have seen bidding wars erupt in auctions and the hammer price exceed $9K for a gun like yours.

  

Can you also give me some rough estimates Out of the ww1 guns what do they look like on average. What’s the average amount of non-original parts, how many all original guns do you see. have you ever seen one in mint condition or near mint condition? Me personally I’ve never seen one with its original finish.

out of all 435 how many are all original for ww1, im guessing it’s less than ww2. How many ww2? On top of that how many still have the original finish.

Is this one real (https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/military-shotguns-us/winchester-model-1897-wwi-era-u-s-trench-gun-12-gauge-shotgun-ivanhoe-1-of-74-richmond-va-p-d-.cfm?gun_id=101972768). 

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July 17, 2022 - 5:42 am
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Dough boy said

 

Can you also give me some rough estimates Out of the ww1 guns what do they look like on average. What’s the average amount of non-original parts, how many all original guns do you see. have you ever seen one in mint condition or near mint condition? Me personally I’ve never seen one with its original finish.

out of all 435 how many are all original for ww1, im guessing it’s less than ww2. How many ww2? On top of that how many still have the original finish.

Is this one real (https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/military-shotguns-us/winchester-model-1897-wwi-era-u-s-trench-gun-12-gauge-shotgun-ivanhoe-1-of-74-richmond-va-p-d-.cfm?gun_id=101972768). 

  

Most of the WW I Trench guns I have seen are either brown guns, or they have been refinished… I did not record specific numbers in regards to your additional questions.  That stated, I cannot remember seeing one that was in like new or nearly like new condition that was original.  

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July 17, 2022 - 5:50 am
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Bert H. said

Dough boy said

 

Can you also give me some rough estimates Out of the ww1 guns what do they look like on average. What’s the average amount of non-original parts, how many all original guns do you see. have you ever seen one in mint condition or near mint condition? Me personally I’ve never seen one with its original finish.

out of all 435 how many are all original for ww1, im guessing it’s less than ww2. How many ww2? On top of that how many still have the original finish.

Is this one real (https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/military-shotguns-us/winchester-model-1897-wwi-era-u-s-trench-gun-12-gauge-shotgun-ivanhoe-1-of-74-richmond-va-p-d-.cfm?gun_id=101972768). 

  

Most of the WW I Trench guns I have seen are either brown guns, or they have been refinished… I did not record specific numbers in regards to your additional questions.  That stated, I cannot remember seeing one that was in like new or nearly like new condition that was original.  

  

How many mint ww2 guns have you seen in mint condition? Also how many trench guns both ww1 and ww2 are all original parts?

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July 17, 2022 - 6:09 am
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Dough boy said

Bert H. said

Dough boy said

 

Can you also give me some rough estimates Out of the ww1 guns what do they look like on average. What’s the average amount of non-original parts, how many all original guns do you see. have you ever seen one in mint condition or near mint condition? Me personally I’ve never seen one with its original finish.

out of all 435 how many are all original for ww1, im guessing it’s less than ww2. How many ww2? On top of that how many still have the original finish.

Is this one real (https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/military-shotguns-us/winchester-model-1897-wwi-era-u-s-trench-gun-12-gauge-shotgun-ivanhoe-1-of-74-richmond-va-p-d-.cfm?gun_id=101972768). 

  

Most of the WW I Trench guns I have seen are either brown guns, or they have been refinished… I did not record specific numbers in regards to your additional questions.  That stated, I cannot remember seeing one that was in like new or nearly like new condition that was original.  

  

Can I just get a copy of your survey? 

How many mint ww2 guns have you seen in mint condition? Also how many trench guns both ww1 and ww2 are all original parts?

  

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July 17, 2022 - 5:47 pm
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Hey Dough boy. For your personal amusement, here is the last of my US Shotgun collection. About as minty as you can get. One of the last # E 955552. I have the correct bayonet and scabbard, the 1943 dated US Shotgun ammo pouch, a box of WW2 paper 00 buck, and a box of WW2 brass 00 buck. The sling is dated 1944 and is also minty. I gave $2,000 for it. Not ashamed to tell you.

BTW, most official publications list these as Riot Guns with bayonet attachment.

The WW1 guns must be US marked to bring the big bucks and the one you show is not. It may well be a US martial shotgun, but without the US stamp, just another shotgun and worth considerable less.

For Bert, at one time, I had the nicest US marked WW1 Trenchgun in existence according to all the martial shotgun collectors. I sold it for $13,500.00.

            Big LarryM1897-Trenchgun.JPGImage Enlarger

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July 17, 2022 - 8:02 pm
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Big Larry said
Hey Dough boy. For your personal amusement, here is the last of my US Shotgun collection. About as minty as you can get. One of the last # E 955552. I have the correct bayonet and scabbard, the 1943 dated US Shotgun ammo pouch, a box of WW2 paper 00 buck, and a box of WW2 brass 00 buck. The sling is dated 1944 and is also minty. I gave $2,000 for it. Not ashamed to tell you.

BTW, most official publications list these as Riot Guns with bayonet attachment.

The WW1 guns must be US marked to bring the big bucks and the one you show is not. It may well be a US martial shotgun, but without the US stamp, just another shotgun and worth considerable less.

For Bert, at one time, I had the nicest US marked WW1 Trenchgun in existence according to all the martial shotgun collectors. I sold it for $13,500.00.

            Big LarryM1897-Trenchgun.JPGImage Enlarger

  

That’s super sick, when did you buy it? I would love to have one in such a condition. I’m definitely on the younger side especially compared to your average collector. I never got some of these opportunities to get great deals on cool mil surp

I felt like this was my only opportunity to buy one. If you ever need a new home for it, I’ll be more than happy to give you beyond a fair price for it. I feel like a lot of the good deals on cool stuff are gone. I didn’t care about the price I just wanted a trench gun, especially when I realize I’ll most likely never be able to get a tommy gun or BAR.

Im kinda jealous of your trench gun, but you’re probably not selling it anytime soon. I’m happy to be privileged enough to own one in the first place. 

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July 17, 2022 - 8:52 pm
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BTW I knew it was called a riot gun with bayonet attachment however it’s not very effective marketing. I think if it was labeled trench gun it would’ve gotten significantly more attention. 

how many trench guns total do you think were produced? I heard a significant amount of the government contracted guns were generic riot guns. 

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July 17, 2022 - 9:14 pm
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I don’t know the total number. You may want to buy one of Mr. Canfields books on US Shotguns. BTW, here is another of my treasures. Big Larry

Yes, it is the real deal. Registered Class 3. Live 1943 Thompson.

 

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July 17, 2022 - 9:20 pm
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That’s beyond cool, unfortunately I gotta write owning that one off. 

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July 18, 2022 - 3:32 pm
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Is that the correct sling for a WW ll Trench Gun? 

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July 19, 2022 - 4:51 pm
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Yes. The 1907 leather sling was typically used on all the trench guns from WW1 and WW2. Same sling used on the M1903 and Garand. Some exceptions do apply. Big larry

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