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This is a heck of a rare and nice M1887 Fancy shotgun. The ledger notation of, “good damascus” was of interest. I had not seen that before. Certainly one wouldn’t want bad or poor damascus, but what was the alternative here? Perhaps damascus with a lesser pattern or print?
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/4092/8/winchester-model-1887-deluxe-lever-action-shotgun
Steve,
Winchester had two grades of Damascus… “Good” (3-blade) and “Fine” (4-blade). For the Models 1887, 1893, and 1897 it was typically entered in the factory ledger record Barrel column as “G.D.” or “F.D.”
The attached pictures are examples of Good (3-blade) and Fine (4-blade) on Model 1897 shotguns.
Good Damascus
Fine Damascus
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I just looked at the Model 1887 in the RIA auction… it no longer has a Damascus barrel on it! Apparently, Winchester removed & replaced it with a rolled steel barrel during one of the listed “R&R” trips back to the factory.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
RIA’s description doesn’t surprise me one bit. They will list anything anyway it seems more viable for the sale, as does anyone of a number of auction houses, you pick. Case in point is an 86 ELW with erroneous markings on the barrel. I called them on it and got a generic Email asking me what I was talking about. So me being me I explained it to them. I think that as true collectors, and by all means I am not stating I know jack diddly s#$@, I say go ahead and call them on it. If you see something say something.
oldcrankyyankee said
RIA’s description doesn’t surprise me one bit. They will list anything anyway it seems more viable for the sale, as does anyone of a number of auction houses, you pick. Case in point is an 86 ELW with erroneous markings on the barrel. I called them on it and got a generic Email asking me what I was talking about. So me being me I explained it to them. I think that as true collectors, and by all means I am not stating I know jack diddly s#$@, I say go ahead and call them on it. If you see something say something.
Did they revise their listing based on your expertise? It seems unlikely and that’s fraudulent.
If they did, kudos to them!
And you are correct with regards to what is wrong with that ELW rifle.
mrcvs said
oldcrankyyankee said
RIA’s description doesn’t surprise me one bit. They will list anything anyway it seems more viable for the sale, as does anyone of a number of auction houses, you pick. Case in point is an 86 ELW with erroneous markings on the barrel. I called them on it and got a generic Email asking me what I was talking about. So me being me I explained it to them. I think that as true collectors, and by all means I am not stating I know jack diddly s#$@, I say go ahead and call them on it. If you see something say something.
Did they revise their listing based on your expertise? It seems unlikely and that’s fraudulent.
If they did, kudos to them!
And you are correct with regards to what is wrong with that ELW rifle.
As of this time they have not revised the listing and still not emailed me back.
Bert H. said
Steve,Winchester had two grades of Damascus… “Good” (3-blade) and “Fine” (4-blade). For the Models 1887, 1893, and 1897 it was typically entered in the factory ledger record Barrel column as “G.D.” or “F.D.”
The attached pictures are examples of Good (3-blade) and Fine (4-blade) on Model 1897 shotguns.
Good Damascus
Fine Damascus
Thanks Bert! I’ve learned something. Does it seem odd that given the gun was built as an exhibition gun, they didn’t go with the better grade of damascus?
I’m really not a shotgun guy but I do have a M1887 that I’ve had for a couple decades.
By the way, I always enjoy seeing, “To Russ” in a factory letter. We’ve seen a lot of them over the years. If I could go back in time to the Winchester factory, I would have enjoyed hanging around Russ.
steve004 said Does it seem odd that given the gun was built as an exhibition gun, they didn’t go with the better grade of damascus?
But it wasn’t originally built that way, the letter implies. When it was returned to the factory 7/19, that’s when it was “made fancy,” not at the time of its original construction. The superiority of “fluid steel” brls was unquestioned from the time they first became commonly available (from Rem I think), so Damascus was an anachronism by 1897. It’s understandable there’d still be a market for it if the cost was lower than steel, but the Damascus option almost doubled the cost of the gun!
The so called “superiority” of the early fluid steel barrels is another one of those long lived “urban myths” as it applies to the guns that were built by Colt, Parker Brothers, LC Smith, Remington, Ithaca, and Winchester with Damascus barrels.
There reality is this, the Damascus barrels that were used by the aforementioned gun makers were every bit as strong and durable as the “new” fluid (rolled) steel barrels that were first available in the 1880s. They were proofed to the exact same pressures as the fluid steel barrels. A good many years ago, a DT (destructive test) was conducted by Sherman Bell using a Parker Brothers Damascus barrelled gun. The barrels did not fail until the pressures approached 30K psi!
This is a good short read, and provides other reference sources that can be researched for those that would like to learn the real truth about Damascus barrels.
Damascus Barrels – Rumors & Facts | Larry’s Short Stories (midwayusa.com)
I own a Grade 2 Lewis Model Ithaca SxS manufactured in the year 1902 with Damascus barrels (it was my great grandfathers gun). When it was manufactured, Ithaca proofed it with 2-3/4″ smokeless powder loads. My dad actively hunted with it right up to the time he enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps in June 1950.
Winchester offered Damascus barrels up to the year 1914 (for the Model 1897). The barrels were chambered for 2-3/4″ shells and were proofed with 200% smokeless powder loads. I personally would not be the least bit concerned about shooting one of them with standard 12-ga loads today as long as the gun is mechanically sound. The Brits are still actively proofing and shooting Damascus barrelled scatterguns that are approaching 150-years old!.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
oldcrankyyankee said
mrcvs said
oldcrankyyankee said
RIA’s description doesn’t surprise me one bit. They will list anything anyway it seems more viable for the sale, as does anyone of a number of auction houses, you pick. Case in point is an 86 ELW with erroneous markings on the barrel. I called them on it and got a generic Email asking me what I was talking about. So me being me I explained it to them. I think that as true collectors, and by all means I am not stating I know jack diddly s#$@, I say go ahead and call them on it. If you see something say something.
Did they revise their listing based on your expertise? It seems unlikely and that’s fraudulent.
If they did, kudos to them!
And you are correct with regards to what is wrong with that ELW rifle.
As of this time they have not revised the listing and still not emailed me back.
If this is a current auction, do you have a direct link?
November 7, 2015
Offline
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/4092/8/winchester-model-1887-deluxe-lever-action-shotgun
Thinking about going, Jeremy?
Mike
Bert H. said
The so called “superiority” of the early fluid steel barrels is another one of those long lived “urban myths” as it applies to the guns that were built by Colt, Parker Brothers, LC Smith, Remington, Ithaca, and Winchester with Damascus barrels.There reality is this, the Damascus barrels that were used by the aforementioned gun makers were every bit as strong and durable as the “new” fluid (rolled) steel barrels that were first available in the 1880s. They were proofed to the exact same pressures as the fluid steel barrels. A good many years ago, a DT (destructive test) was conducted by Sherman Bell using a Parker Brothers Damascus barrelled gun. The barrels did not fail until the pressures approached 30K psi!
This is a good short read, and provides other reference sources that can be researched for those that would like to learn the real truth about Damascus barrels.
Damascus Barrels – Rumors & Facts | Larry’s Short Stories (midwayusa.com)
I own a Grade 2 Lewis Model Ithaca SxS manufactured in the year 1902 with Damascus barrels (it was my great grandfathers gun). When it was manufactured, Ithaca proofed it with 2-3/4″ smokeless powder loads. My dad actively hunted with it right up to the time he enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps in June 1950.
Winchester offered Damascus barrels up to the year 1914 (for the Model 1897). The barrels were chambered for 2-3/4″ shells and were proofed with 200% smokeless powder loads. I personally would not be the least bit concerned about shooting one of them with standard 12-ga loads today as long as the gun is mechanically sound. The Brits are still actively proofing and shooting Damascus barrelled scatterguns that are approaching 150-years old!.
Bert
Bert – This is great information for me. There has been a lot of mythology about Damascus steel and I haven’t known otherwise. Thanks!
Bert your explanation of Damascus was excellent. The pictures where spot on and indeed educational. Thanks for the time in posting all of that. Will now have a better eye If I delve into shotguns.
TXGunNut said
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/4092/8/winchester-model-1887-deluxe-lever-action-shotgunThinking about going, Jeremy?
Mike
I was looking for a link to the 1886 LW he was referring to……I haven’t thought about it honestly….I keep forgetting they’re down the road! 😆 I never make the viewing day during the week and have yet to really look the catalog over….
What about you?
November 7, 2015
Offline
Jeremy P said
TXGunNut said
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/4092/8/winchester-model-1887-deluxe-lever-action-shotgun
Thinking about going, Jeremy?
Mike
I was looking for a link to the 1886 LW he was referring to……I haven’t thought about it honestly….I keep forgetting they’re down the road! 😆 I never make the viewing day during the week and have yet to really look the catalog over….
What about you?
Jeremy-
I’d like for you to meet Pat Hogan and his son Kevin. They are solid supporters of WACA and TGCA as well as certifiable gun nuts. Call in hungover, sick, dead or kidnapped for inspection day. No day at work will ever rival what you’ll see. We both know you have days to burn and they wouldn’t allow them unless they wanted you to use them. You have good people working under you, the campus will not burn down while you’re gone. If it does a cranky old school cop will drive you back to HQ to help put the fires out. I hope to be looking at repair bids for tornado damage soon so will NOT be a bidder…OK, maybe. All kidding aside this is an opportunity to see guns you likely won’t see again.
Mike
Bert, Thank you for that interesting article on Damascus barrels. It is funny that when you read or hear something when you are younger that you take it as gospel. I have a very nice Grade 4 LC Smith Double with Damascus barrels. Never thought of shooting it, because what I thought I knew about these. Don’t know if I will ever shot it, but this puts a new light on things. It is a good Day when you learn something new!
TXGunNut said
Jeremy-
I’d like for you to meet Pat Hogan and his son Kevin. They are solid supporters of WACA and TGCA as well as certifiable gun nuts. Call in hungover, sick, dead or kidnapped for inspection day. No day at work will ever rival what you’ll see. We both know you have days to burn and they wouldn’t allow them unless they wanted you to use them. You have good people working under you, the campus will not burn down while you’re gone. If it does a cranky old school cop will drive you back to HQ to help put the fires out. I hope to be looking at repair bids for tornado damage soon so will NOT be a bidder…OK, maybe. All kidding aside this is an opportunity to see guns you likely won’t see again.
Mike
LOL that is what I’ll have to do…I would like to meet them one day soon, for the premier auction upcoming, that is the start of school week which is wheels-off and then I’ll be out rest of the year basically….here’s to making it to RIA in 2025!
I think I already told you I’ll miss TGCA this Fall in Denton…I’ll have a watchlist for you! 🙂
To help make this topical, I appreciate the postings on the Damascus steel, learned a little there. Good catch on the barrel of that listing…I noticed that first off and was like, “what the hell?”
Every time I read topics like this, it’s like getting an anti-Artful Dodger vaccine. The old Winchester forest really is deep and dark and full of Fagins.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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