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August 8, 2024
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My Son told me that he saw the same Model 1897 engraved Black Diamond 20 gauge made in 1941 that He saw last year. He told me that the owner told him that He got it authenticated last July at the Cody show. I told him that the gun was a made up gun that was not original. Bert, are you aware of this? Maybe, I missed something.
December 25, 2016
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Now this sounds like it could get interesting. Authenticated at a show by whom, regardless of location a show does not authenticate a gun. If truly “authenticated” documentation should accompany by a recognized expert in 1897 Winchester shotguns. Let the documentation be your guide, my money is on there not being any other than perhaps a Cody serial look up.
November 7, 2015
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As Ricklin points out, authentication involves paper. Let’s see it! Personally I’d rather see the gun. Frankenchester or no I suspect it’s purty!
Mike
May 26, 2017
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We will see, it has a letter, and Bert had it in his hands……. If that’s good enough for the Leary
April 15, 2005
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Bo Rich said
My Son told me that he saw the same Model 1897 engraved Black Diamond 20 gauge made in 1941 that He saw last year. He told me that the owner told him that He got it authenticated last July at the Cody show. I told him that the gun was a made up gun that was not original. Bert, are you aware of this? Maybe, I missed something.
I am aware of it, and I was specifically asked my opinion of it, which I offered. However, I did not officially “authenticate” it. What I told the owner (and his son), was that it appeared to be factory Custom shop work. The gun and the case it is in are both superbly done, and I recommended that he contact Pauline Muerrle to see if she had any information about it, as Cody does not.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 10, 2021
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I guess I’ll join the party, I’m the owners son. Bert you met a family friend that travels with my dad from time to time in Cody I haven’t had the pleasure of going quite yet. I think a few things got thrown around here that quite weren’t right. The gun in question does have a Cody letter dated from 1978. Neither of us have said that you authenticated anything, as you said that you gave your opinion on it. It’s something of interest either way and will get to the bottom of it in due time, until then it will just rest in the case 😉.
August 8, 2024
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Thanks for the input Guys! I noticed that RIA had a 1941 Model 97 Black Diamond 20 Gauge engraved shotgun on auction in 2025. This may be the same gun that my Son saw at the show.
August 8, 2024
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I must say that I did not closely inspect the 20 gauge Black Diamond engraved Model 97. I read that Winchester never made a 20 gauge Model 97. So, I assumed it to be a put together shotgun. The owner said that the case was made up after he got the shotgun. Dirtman 324 would you please post the Cody letter from 1978. Also what did Pauline Muerrie say about the shotgun? Winchester stopped making Black Diamond grade Model 97s in 1919. They did however use the Black Diamond inlay in the Model 12 Pigeon grade up to 1941. I ran a quick search, and found some Other Black Diamond engraved Model 1897s that were also 20 gauge guns. Perhaps one of them is the one that was seen at the show. Are they make up guns like I originally thought? Or did Winchester make a 20 gauge Model 1897? I would be interested in what other Collectors would think of this.
Also, of interest at the show was a Model 21 that was chambered in 14 gauge! I asked the owner about the shotgun. I was informed that it was a prototype that was not completed at the Winchester factory. It was recovered, and Connecticut Shotgun completed the work with number Two engraving, and a deluxe checkered stock. I read of Winchester making some 14 Gauge Model 59s. Perhaps they were thinking of making a Model 21 in 14 gauge, but scraped the idea.
April 15, 2005
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Bo Rich said
I must say that I did not closely inspect the 20 gauge Black Diamond engraved Model 97. I read that Winchester never made a 20 gauge Model 97. So, I assumed it to be a put together shotgun. The owner said that the case was made up after he got the shotgun. Dirtman 324 would you please post the Cody letter from 1978. Also what did Pauline Muerrie say about the shotgun? Winchester stopped making Black Diamond grade Model 97s in 1919. They did however use the Black Diamond inlay in the Model 12 Pigeon grade up to 1941. I ran a quick search, and found some Other Black Diamond engraved Model 1897s that were also 20 gauge guns. Perhaps one of them is the one that was seen at the show. Are they make up guns like I originally thought? Or did Winchester make a 20 gauge Model 1897? I would be interested in what other Collectors would think of this.
Also, of interest at the show was a Model 21 that was chambered in 14 gauge! I asked the owner about the shotgun. I was informed that it was a prototype that was not completed at the Winchester factory. It was recovered, and Connecticut Shotgun completed the work with number Two engraving, and a deluxe checkered stock. I read of Winchester making some 14 Gauge Model 59s. Perhaps they were thinking of making a Model 21 in 14 gauge, but scraped the idea.
I have found just two Model 1897 20-ga guns thus far, and one of them is positively a Fake (s/n 440708).
In my survey, I have documented “black diamond” Trap guns well into the 1920s. Where did you find documentation that they were discontinued in the year 1919?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 25, 2016
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I believe the Model 1912 was the replacement for the 1897. Perhaps they chose to start with 20 gauge for the model 12 for that reason. Perhaps not the primary reason. There were at least a few years they made both guns.
April 15, 2005
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Ricklin said
I believe the Model 1912 was the replacement for the 1897. Perhaps they chose to start with 20 gauge for the model 12 for that reason. Perhaps not the primary reason. There were at least a few years they made both guns.
The Model 1912 was most certainly not the replacement for the Model 1897. Both Models were coincidently in production from August 6th, 1912 through September 30th, 1957 (a 45-year run for both models).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 8, 2024
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Bert, I found that information many years ago. On page 169 of the Winchester Hand book Madis states that the inlaid Black Diamond was discontinued in 1919. Even if they made Black Diamond Model 1897s into the 1920s. It is still several years before 1941 when the gun in question was made.
April 15, 2005
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Bo Rich said
Bert, I found that information many years ago. On page 169 of the Winchester Hand book Madis states that the inlaid Black Diamond was discontinued in 1919. Even if they made Black Diamond Model 1897s into the 1920s. It is still several years before 1941 when the gun in question was made.
As a cautionary note, almost every statistical piece of information published by Madis should be viewed with a very healthy dose of salt.
The Model 1897 Black Diamond Trap guns were in production until they were replaced by the Standard and Special Trap guns in the year 1931. Having stated that, the number of Trap Guns manufactured between April 1922 and December 1930 was very small. In my survey, I have just (9) documented. In the July 1897 through March 1922 time period, I have (231) documented Black Diamond Trap Guns.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 8, 2025
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As a younger member, I use google and now AI to lookup things. It really seems like the Madis books aren’t worth buying. For a younger collector, knowledge is the most important thing. That’s why I joined. This forum is more valuable than any book I could buy.
Adam
August 8, 2024
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Bert, Yes, I agree that some of the data that Madis wrote has been updated. But, since we don’t see many examples after 1919 of the Model 97 Black Diamond. Perhaps the ones we find were made up with parts that were found that were made earlier.
Midwest crisis, I agree that you will find much knowledge on this forum. But, I still review Madis’s books from time to time. There is still some good information to be found in them. I met him back in the mid 1990s. He was at our Eastern Show in Erie, Pa. A very kind Man who grew quite a crowd. 50 years from now when I am long gone. Some young Winchester Collector will look at Todays Forum, and discredit all that old information!
Bert, At the time I only have two Model 1897s in my collection. My Black Diamond letters as a trap gun, 12 gauge, 30 inch barrel, pistol Grip, Takedown, S/N 194721 Received in the warehouse January 30, 1903. shipped January 31, 1903 order number 174788. The second is a Field grade 12 gauge with a 28 inch Modified choke. S/N; 503102.
April 15, 2005
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Bo,
I am not of the opinion that the post-1918 production Trap Guns were “parts guns”. The following information is directly from my ongoing research survey and lists all of the Trap and Tournament grade guns that I currently have documented.
Per my research (using the original Winchester catalogs), the Trap and Tournament grade guns were officially discontinued shortly after Olin assumed the ownership of Winchester in 1931. Th following is quoted from my recent article discussing the Model 1897 (97) production run.
“As a result of the Great Depression and Winchester’s rapid financial decline and eventual ruin, the Olin Corporation acquired the Winchester Repeating Arms Company out of bankruptcy receivership in early 1931. Winchester at that time became a division of the Western Cartridge Company. Production of the Model 97 for the entirety of the 1930s (January 1, 1930 – December 31, 1939) amounted to just 52,709 guns, with no physical design changes/improvements made. Winchester (Olin) discontinued the Brush Gun, Trap Gun, and Tournament Gun variations in 1931, replacing the latter two with the “Standard Trap” and “Special Trap” guns.“
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 25, 2016
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Thanks for that Bert.
August 8, 2024
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Bert, Yes my copy of the Winchester catalog dated January 2, 1931 only list the Model 97 in Standard Take-Down, Guard and Riot Gun, Solid Frame or Take Down, and Trench Gun Solid Frame only. Am I correct in that in your survey the last Trap or Tournament grade with the black diamond inlaid in the butt stock was made in 1922?
April 15, 2005
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Bo Rich said
Bert, Yes my copy of the Winchester catalog dated January 2, 1931 only list the Model 97 in Standard Take-Down, Guard and Riot Gun, Solid Frame or Take Down, and Trench Gun Solid Frame only. Am I correct in that in your survey the last Trap or Tournament grade with the black diamond inlaid in the butt stock was made in 1922?
Not quite. There is one Tournament Gun (s/n 828398) that was manufactured with the black diamond stock in December of 1927. That stated, my survey does appear to indicate that the black diamond stocks were discontinued as a standard feature sometime in late April of 1922.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 15, 2005
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Bo Rich said
Bert, At the time I only have two Model 1897s in my collection. My Black Diamond letters as a trap gun, 12 gauge, 30 inch barrel, pistol Grip, Takedown, S/N 194721 Received in the warehouse January 30, 1903. shipped January 31, 1903 order number 174788. The second is a Field grade 12 gauge with a 28 inch Modified choke. S/N; 503102.
The pistol grip butt stock is unusual for a Trap Gun as most of them had the English style straight grip. Can you send me pictures of your BD Trap Gun? Does it have a matted barrel? What grade is the wood e.g. 2X, 3X, or ?
S/N 503102 was manufactured in September 1910. It should have a Type 4 slide bar marking and a Type 7 barrel address marking.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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